View Full Version : The impact of trail maintenance on a comunity?
I have encouraged Jing to post this up and get some discussion happening but he hasn't. It involves BMU as a community so I don't see why there shouldn't be some discussion.
So, from Jing's Blog...
Potentially the most controversial post i will ever make on my blog
Posted on 05/10/2010 by jingers
You know sometimes when you want to voice something that you feel but you kinda let it simmer inside yourself because you know it will open a can of worms? I have had that voice echoing in my head for quite a while now and i have always pushed it back back back. Even now i am thinking of putting this post in the draft and call it quits because i know certain ppl reading will be unhappy, certain ppl reading will be shocked and certain ppl reading might actually understand where i am coming from. I have lived long enough to know you can?t satisfy everybody in life with your actions but you owe it to yourself to explain why you feel what you feel. I am a pretty straight shooting guy so let me apologise to you right now if what i am about to say offends you or makes no sense to yourself.
Basically what i am going to speak about is trail work. For the uninitiated trail work is work done on trails *duh* that helps maintain or repair or better certain sections of a mtb trail. Trail work is invaluable and without it the trails we will be riding will be of a much lesser quality and potentially there will be less trails out there. I respect trail work being carried out by volunteers and i think it is very admirable.
For the rest of this post i will be referring to three parties.
Bmu as in the Bmu community and the ppl that forms this little community.
Them as in the ppl that i have an issue with in regards to this particular issue *this has to be stated clearly as it is just this particular issue that i am iffy about*.
Me as in myself.
So, with all the groundwork laid, lets get into the meat of it.
Starting with me. I have being riding MTB for around 2.5 years now and i have never ever attended or participated in any trail work of any kind. I can go on and try to explain myself saying i have work on trial maintenance days but for ?them?, i don?t think that would be enough.
Am i passionate about the mtb community? Absolutely, and it is because i am passionate about the mtb community that i make this post. Think about it, why would i risk my neck expressing something controversial when i can just sit back and keep riding the trails and remain uncritiqued?
Why have i not done more trail work you ask? You seem to be riding an awful lot i hear you say. Well yes and no. You see a passion does not grow over night. I did not start riding and immediately come to my current levels of passion for our hobbies/sport. Even as it is now i am still gaining more knowledge/passion for this community/hobby/sport. So to be frank, if you asked me to do trail work in the 1st year i would flatly be uninterested because i simply was not that into it and i wasn?t that passionate about it. Keep this section fresh in your mind though because i will be coming back to it later.
So now that you have gained a little bit more passion what do you intend to do about our trails? It is clear to me that everyone lives with a different time structure. Even though i own my own business i do have to work 6 days a week. I don?t own a business where i have days off completely at odd times nor do i finish work prior to 6pm. Nor am i comfortable with going out to a trail where i think needs work done and start doing the work myself because i know that i am unskilled or qualified in that area and anything i do will most likely make it worse.
The most viable trail work day is currently the loftus oval days because they seem to have a clear schedule every month but unfortunately it is situated on a saturday. So why don?t you work on sunday? There is no clear cut schedule that says every sunday of the month is work on appin day or work on ourimbah day or work on manly dam day. You can say i have not being proactive enough to ask ppl *really only one person i know* what they are doing every weekend in regards to trail work on a Sunday. I do have a feeling that he does his work without a clear cut schedule one month ahead of everything *i might be wrong on this*. So generally i can work on trails on Sunday but due to my lack of proactiviness and ease of access of an advanced schedule it has not being happening. Believe it or not it really does help to have an advanced schedule when it comes to informing your family in regards to what you intend to do on a given day. The only given day that you have time off in fact.
What would help in getting me to do trail work more? Exactly waht i said above. Trail work days on Sunday to be clearly scheduled and marked every months so i know what i can expect and hence not schedule rides on those days with groups of bmuers. What i do to preserve our trails is not ride it in conditions that would adversely effect the trails. I educate newer riders to the cons of riding in bad conditions in a way that they would understand. Sure, these are most likely nothing compared to actual trail work but it is something i do.
So wait, what is exactly controversial about what i have posted so far? I mean all i have posted is a self assessment on why i have not being doing trail work and how i can do more. Well read on, the juicy stuff starts from here.
I call your attention to the bolded statement a million paragraphs previously in this post and i ask you to reread that again. There is one little exception to this bold post. That is to say that i appreciate all the trail work that?s done to maintain our trails but if it comes at the cost of splitting a community then no thanks. I would rather ride shit trails. I would rather ride crap trails with logs everywhere and branches sticking into derailleurs and sand with a good wholesome community then ride meticulously groomed trails with a community who?s always biting each others ass. Get me? To me the mtb community isn?t just about the trails. It is about the people as well. People tend to forget this. How good a community is isn?t how many people turn up to trail work. It is more about how nicely they bond with each other and solve problems presented to them.
The problems of trail work is always prevalent as long as we keep riding trails but i feel that by shoving trail work down the throats of everyone and then labelling the community unresponsive is about as close to the right thing to do as me riding the trails when its completely muddy. Not only is it stereotyping *because there is plenty of members of the community that turn up to trail work* it is also hostile towards potential people that have thought about doing trail work in the near future. How many of the rotorburners 44,746 members actually do trail work i wonder? How many of them submit comments? What are those ratios of actual participant across both rotorburn and bmu forums i wonder? Many of the members on bmu is simply non active or have not gone deep enough to care too much and by people stereotyping the bmu community as unresponsive is a sure way to shut those fledgling mtbers up permanently. This is a real shame.
Then there are people that simply do trail work to have a go at others. There are a couple of real enthusiast trail workers but to me there are a couple of people that simply does trail work to take the piss out of others or communities. This is not on. At the end of the day you do trail work because you love the trails and it is your passion to maintain the trails. You do these tasks out of your own time unconditionally and even if no one joined up with you and you had to dig yourself for the whole day you do it because you want to. You don?t go ahead and submit yourself to a full day of work and when no one else turns up you go on and bitch about the rest of the community. Wake up call, what you do is 100% admirable, but it is something you choose to do yourself and as such you have to get over the fact that anyone doing something differently to you isnt instantly labeled as the ?scourge? of the community. That?s right people, the main point i am trying to make is this.
IT IS OK TO NOT DO TRAIL WORK. IT WOULD BE AWESOME IF YOU CAN DO IT FROM TIME TO TIME BUT IF YOU DON?T YOU AREN?T THE SCOURGE OF THE COMMUNITY. WHEN POSSIBLE PUT BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY. WHETHER IT IS IN THE FORM OF INFORMATIVE REVIEWS OR HELPING OTHER RIDERS OR WHATEVER. HELPING THE MTB COMMUNITY GOES FAR DEEPER THAN TRAIL WORK. FIGURE OUT WHAT YOUR AREA OF EXPERTISE IS AND AS LONG AS IT BENEFITS THE MTB COMMUNITY I THINK YOU HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB.
I know some of the people i am targeting with this post will instantly ignore the points i have made in my post and focus on the fact that 1. i have not done any trail work 2. i am simply justifying why i haven?t. Honestly though, settle down, read my points, understand my appreciation for trail workers and see that your approach to spreading the word on trail work is simply not the best way to do it. If you have personal issues and you feel strongly about it be a man and message me directly about it. In fact call me on my mobile. I would love to have a purposeful discussion on all of this with yourself. I am not holding my breath for any calls though.
Yours
Passionate mtber
As everyone will see in the next installment, I was one of those 'targeted' by Jing with this post, so a bit of a response.
It's disappointing that as a regular contributor to BMU I have been lumped with 'them'. I can understand why though as I do apparenlty have different values to a lot of the more vocal members on here and often find it difficult to understand some of the attitudes displayed.
As Jing points out, 'everyone lives with a different time structure'. It's amazing though how many people can fit in a bit of trail work, or time to send off an email, or organise a meeting with the appropriate people and discuss mtb advocacy issues. All of this with families, jobs and everything else that goes along with having a real life. I dispise the excuse of 'I don't have enough time'.
A maintenance schedule is needed well in advance of when activities will be undertaken. Fair enough, some people need that. BMU has had a thread for the Loftus days for over a year. It's taken a long time for it to become a sticky thread but it is now. The regular maintenance day is the 3rd Saturday of every month. It's in the thread title. All of the relevant information for getting involved in in the first post. Very little action has been taken from BMU members to get out and do some work on this track. I would say that while some people that do attend these days are BMU members, they do not generally associate with BMU. How much more of an advanced schedule is needed? Ah, work committments or family committments! I've got no problems with that. I get a bit upset when this excuse is used and then a ride at another location is organised, but aren't I allowed to? Doesn't it look like members of the BMU community are actively going out of their way to not put something back into a track that is frequented by members of this message board? Or what about when you see some riders during a maintenance day? Usually they meant to turn up but 'forgot'. Just say you don't want to do it and would prefer to ride instead of pretending.
The comparison to RB, well, RB has a whole section dedicated to trail work and mtb advocacy. Unfortunately BMU seems to have various threads echoing with their lack of responses. In my experience the number of people who associate with RB that participate in trail work and mtb advocacy issues dwarf the number of BMU members who make token efforts in any area. There has possibly been more discussion on here complaining about how hard it is to be involved with these sorts of issues on this forum that actual constructive efforts made. There are always exceptions though - shout out to Andy! Apologies if I've missed anyone else.
I really do wonder who are these people who do trail work just to have a go at others? I do trail work because I enjoy it and like riding tracks that are well looked after. It's bloody hard work a lot of the time and certainly not something I do just so I can have a go at others. I can't recall a time when I've done a full day of trail work at a time I've organised and then complained that no-one else turned up.
At the end of it all, the big call out to those who are supposed to know who they are, even if they aren't named, to give Jing a ring. Unfortunately I don't read blogs and it took a week for this to be pointed out to me by someone else. Jing's response when I called him was 'I'm surprised it took you so long to call'. We had a friendly chat that unfortunately ended without a mutual understanding.
Then there came, Episode 2...
I thought the phone discussion was the end of it but while discussing this with some people I have a lot of respect for (I won't comment on their thoughts) we found Episode 2...
Further trail maintenance discussions
Posted on 12/10/2010 by jingers
Yesterday one of the guys i targeted with my original trail maintenance post called me up and we had a discussion in regards to various points. I think a lot of the points we talked about effects many of us so i will try and pass it on here. The overall discussion was a bit pointless because in the end no real understanding was really reached IMO but it was good to hear from the other side of the story. Whilst we couldn?t agree with each others stories/explanations of how it has transpired maybe you guys would be able to gather your own views from what was said.
The conversation started with me explaining or rather reiterating some of the points i made on the previous post. Noting particular issues with how one community was compared to the other and how it was unfair. I pointed out that even if rotorburn had 440 trail workers *which would be a very very very generous guess* it would make a ratio of 1 trail worker for every 100 member they had. I went on to explain that i think the ratio of trail workers on BMU was actually better but he said that he didn?t think this comparison was valid. Whether it is or isn?t i dont really know. I mean, how else do you work out ratios? It is just a simple division of numbers. I didn?t write it off completely because i understand that sometimes when passion is involved numbers isn?t 100% the best and clearest indication. Ie you might argue 1 trail worker on rotorburn does 10x what 1 trail worker on bmu does.
He then told me that it is becoming increasingly difficult to be associated with BMU. He rides with people or runs into people on the trails that associate himself with BMU and hence questions why BMU is ruining the trails. He then has to explain to them that he isn?t the one ruining the trails he is actually trying to contribute. He told me that he will have a discussion with the royal national parks before deciding whether or not to close the BMU account. I can understand his side of the story here. As you can imagine if you are contributing as much as this person is to the hobby/sport the last thing you want is for your image to be associated with ruining trails. It is basically a kick in the gut for all the hard work you have done. Not cool.
We talked a little bit more about how inaccessible trail work actually is with him agreeing to a couple of points. I mentioned how only loftus has a dedicated schedule in regards to trail maintenance and how trails like Appin and Manly dam never has public information available as to when trail work days actually are or who to contact. Sure there might be a few posts here and there on forums that says ?i am working on so and so trail tomorrow? but really if you miss that post then you have missed the trail day. I also mentioned how a lot of people don?t have any tools and to which he replied that there should be people with a few shovels around that can just borrow them. Not only this but you can?t just go and do trail work on any trail even if you feel you are qualified because if you do something and someone crashes as a result of it the club that looks after the mtb trail can be liable. You get the picture, trail work is pretty inaccessible to most punters. I say most punters because for the most dedicated people there are ways around it. You could monitor the forums for trail maintenance posts, you could actively pursue contact with clubs asking for permission, of course you can go out and buy yourself all the tools you require and maybe purchase a few books on trail maintenance and learn it all but how many people is actually this passionate about our sport? Also the million dollar question, is it wrong to be not as passionate as he is?
I feel the problems that have started comes from a fundamental understanding issue and tolerance towards other people. A problem we seem to have in our society. We seem to forget that there is people different to ourselves in this world and that everyone has different approaches to things. We then push our own ideals and apply our own ideals on others. When others don?t meet our ideals we instantly think they are wrong. I think this is what has happened here. I will be forth right to say i am passionate about Mtbing but i am not $1000 worth of tools, trail maintenance books, email various clubs for permission kinda passionate and IMO there is nothing wrong with that. My passion is more on the level of look after trails consciously whilst i ride, remove a few broken branches misplaced rocks on the trail as i ride, communicate to nubs that it is bad to ride in the wet, interest in participating in a maximum of 1 trail work a months kinda passion. Hell you never know, maybe if i ride as much as some of these guys i might grow to the $1000 worth of tools, books, whole shebang kinda passion but atm i am not and i think that is AOK.
Going back to the topic of people he ride with that thinks BMU guys are ruining the trails and acting like locusts he explained the concept came from the fact that we usually ride Appin Appin Appin Manly Manly Manly which i found no sense with since we just ride what we feel like without any pre-programmed thoughts on riding a certain trail into the ground before moving onto the next. If anything we ride a particular trail in respect to certain trails crappiness in dealing with wet weather. This shows me that the people he is talking to that is associating BMU with this image really isn?t being fair. They don?t know the whole story but are quick to judge and hand down judgements. He stated he saw this coming from a long time due to the way our forum operates. That is to say we post up a lot of event threads and post up pictures post ride and hence it gives the impression to people that we ride ?heaps? and do nothing to maintain the trails. To which i asked what do we do? Do we stop posting pictures? To which he answered. No, wouldn?t change anything, i love the pictures and videos.
Ok, just so we have a mutual undersatnding.
BMU members posts pictures and videos and event threads to host and remember rides and promote our sport in general. Threads that people that think badly of BMU actually enjoys reading.
People see posts and inadvertently thinks that we ride ?heaps?.
They see lack of forum activity in relation to trail maintenance or at least less then they accept as the norm.
They label BMU community as locusts for moving from one trail to another to avoid possible wet weather trail issues ie riding the least effected trails in the wet or trails with the best drainage.
I can?t help but feel that ?these? anti BMU people ain?t getting it. They aren?t getting that there is different levels of passion and they aren?t getting that everyone commits differently to our sport/hobby. If they looked at it with a fair view they would realise that there is actually trail work being carried out on the forums. There might be a smaller commitment but there is commitment non-the-less. People on bmu do have a passion for the trails and isn?t just riding them into the ground. This is not a question about who participates most in trail work. This is a question of whether it is ok to not have the same level of dedication and passion as them.
There are so many wrongs i wouldn?t even know where to begin. I mean what happened if we didn?t post any threads and really did ride trails into the ground skidding at every possible chance? The collective amounts of rides that people on BMU does is also most likely nothing compared to what people on Rotorburn or other forums do. What about nob mob? Do they do as much trail work as people expect them to for the given ratio of rides they do? Do they garner the same image as well from these people?
Basically from the phone conversation i have gathered these personal points for me to reflect upon.
People have different levels of passion and commitment and that is OK. However some people thinks it is not OK to have different levels of passion and commitment and want everyone that rides to accept their levels of acceptable trail work ethos.
Some people are simply judgemental and have no idea about certain things.
We market ourselves very well ie posting pictures/videos but we aren?t paying enough marketing bills X where X is the amount of trail work that these people have in their mind is acceptable given their preconceptions on how much we ride. Which is a lot from what i gather. It seems like we organise 2 rides everyday
It?s life. People are always going to misunderstand you and assume things in the worst possible manner. Whilst you might want to correct/explain these misunderstandings to each one of them it isn?t always worth it or possible. Chances are they are so deep in their own views nothing you say will change anything they think.
Am i worked up about this? Well, like i said to him, it isn?t nice to be associated with the wrong image no matter what. Wearing my jersey i like to ?represent? proudly and not as locusts. Should we give in and do more trail work? That is up to you. The whole point of my two posts is to say that we should have a choice in what we do, you shouldn?t be judged down because you do one or the other *unless you purposely try to ruin trails or have no concerns for them* and that yes, maybe, some of you have being treated unfairly and you have nothing to blame but life *and maybe those individuals that does not get my aforementioned points*.
Congratulations if you reached this spot and you understood my garbled writing. The more passionate i am about a subject the more of a mess i write. Here is a gold star for you.
Just like every society or club - bitchy members, self proclaimed self-importance, spiteful comments and infighting.
Not surprised at all.
The second Blog post has obviously been made afetr our phone conversation.
I think a lot of the points we talked about effects many of us so i will try and pass it on here.
I think this is why it should be discussed on BMU and why I have posted it up.
One of the reasons I don't think the BMU/RB comparison is valid is because a comparison cannot really be made. I've said before that BMU generally appears to display an apathetic attitude to advocacy issues and helping with trail maintenance. RB appears to have a lot more members actively involved in these types of issues. It simply isn't fair on BMU to make such a comparison. If you really want to make a comparison though, have a look at the Trail Building section on RB. How many threads have been made in the last year and posts by RB members compared to the same type of activity on BMU. Click on the number of replies to get a list of members who have posted and divide it by whatever number you want (except 0! ) to work out how many people are actively involved in trail maintenance, building and advocacy issues. It will be significantly more than if you did the same thing with the various threads on BMU.
Yes, I am often being asked by other riders what my association with BMU is and I reply that I am associated with Trailflix and am just a normal poster on BMU. I am not having a discussion with the RNP, but I was going to wait for the results of the NPWS discussion paper and the involvement of the BMU community and then decide whether I continue to contribute to this forum.
Trail work on club tracks can be difficult. I've found the best way to overcome this is to be proactive, take the 5 minutes to send the appropriate person an email suggesting you'd like to do some track work and go from there. If they say no, well, you tried. If they say yes you need to follow through with it based on what they agree to. Most clubs have their own tools and will possibly let you borrow them if you don't have your own. Again, you just have to ask.
Another way of looking at the problems that are apprently 'a fundamental understanding issue and tolerance towards other people' is that yes, people are different and have different approaches. To that end BMU has often been described to me as a community that simply takes. Yes, photos, ride reports, product reviews are all nice, but what does the BMU membership really give back? What important advocacy issues does BMU help with? Everyone likes to ride their bikes, but where are you going to ride them if people don't get involved in mtb advocacy and trail maintenance issues?
The idea of posting up the photos and ride reports is not what people have told me they think badly of. It is the fact that this is done, sometimes with complete disregard to the condition of a track, combined with the perception that BMU does nothing to put back into the mtb community. That's where the take, take, take idea comes from and also the locust concept. It's not nice, but it's the perception that some people have. No-one has ever said that they expect BMU members to have the same level of dedication to trail maintenance or mtb advocacy as them. I don't know where the statements relating to this have come from.
To say some people are simply judgmental and have no idea about certain things is to trivialise the issues raised and make the post guilty of the same failure to see the point of view of others that it says they have made.
If you see doing trail maintenance as 'giving in' to appease 'them' then unfortunately, you don't understand the importance of it or why people do it.
I'm looking forward to some healthy discussion. :)
There's a stigma attached with being a BMU member?
Holy shit, which rock have I been living under?
Like i said Grant over the phone the comments on the blog is simply my own views. I tried to be as impartial about it as possible and tried to post it from a third parties perspective.
I understood enough from talking over the phone from you that you are obviously not going to take any of my comments on board and that is alright. I just hope you understand that by me not taking your thoughts on board it is alright too :)
If you want a healthy discussion then so be it. Most of the active members of bmu have seen the posts already anyways.
As you said Grant, the only regular track work day that's posted on BMU is the Loftus Maintenance days.
For people who don't frequent other forums like RB (me for example), it's really hard to know of any other track work days organised else where.
I think if there are more options for track works days posted here on BMU, ie not just Saturdays at Loftus, I'm pretty sure more members will rock up, because they simply have more choices.
I do Loftus Maintenance days only because that is the only one I'm aware of. If you tell me there are maintenance days else where (in advance of cause)....I'll rock up to those as well.....
My theory is most "active" BMU members don't frequent other forums like RB or NobMob, so we really only have one opportunity every month to show our efforts for track work. Obviously this is not enough for the wider MTB community. Give this community a chance, post more maintenance days as they appear, and more people from here will get involved.
Grant and a few people have messaged me to tell me that they understand that i respect the trails and whatever negative connotations was for some of the other people in our community but i think it is ultra hard to sectionalise myself given that i am part of that same community.
I know a few other members here that genuinely respect our trails and they feel that they have being unfairly grouped with who ever else that has being targeted.
Then there are people that does not understand actually how much we respect the trails and completely assume that we do not care and ride with reckless abandon. Those are the people that i am calling assumptious and judgemental. Those are the people i have an issue with. To me it is fairly simple. I constantly make comments about how happy i am to ride those trails and how much i think it is a gift. I am fairly clear on where i stand in regards to trail advocacy.
I think it's funny that BMU members think that there is some sort of a battle between them and RB members. Honestly, no one on RB really cares. Of the 45,000 odd members on RB not everyone is as active as the people on here. Members of BMU spend A LOT more time on the internet than those on RB, and as a result have formed this grudge.. Or maybe it's because the creator of these forums only created them because he couldn't handle the former. The RB vs BMU thing needs to be forgotten - because only one party really cares.
Crank, thought i'd just say: You do great work. Everywhere I look you post advocacy threads that get no replies - yet you keep posting. You organise people, chase people, motivate people and evidently fight people because you are truly passionate about the sport and want to keep the experience of riding enjoyable for everyone both new and experienced.
Posting video's, blogging and having 6 thousand posts on a forum that's only a year and half old IS NOT promoting the sport. I'm not having a go at you jing - I respect you. I don't think that you buying a new bike a week is a bad thing. I enjoy your reviews. But you and others need to pull your head out of your ass, posting on the internet is not promoting the sport.
Question: Have you, or any of the others on this forum actually ever gone to an organised build day with the intention of helping not just "checking it out"? All of the build days i've been on have been a tonne of fun - it's not about back breaking labour, it's about doing the right thing and having a good time with some mates. Saying you don't have experience and don't have tools is piss weak. Trail building is not exactly rocket science. Though berm making and transition building takes a little bit of practice. Filling in braking ruts or moving fallen trees does not take ANY 'building experience'.
I don't want to sound like i'm all high and mighty, I really couldn't care less if you don't help out - but trying to justify you not helping with some complex 3,534 word argument is just not on.
Again, without sounding high and mighty: I've been riding mtb's and bmx's for four years now. Within my first year of riding I understood that as someone who was using those trails I had to help in maintaining them. Though for the first 3 or so years of my riding I have been riding primarily illegal dj and dh trails and only recently been getting into the xc thing (and yet to go to a build day at an xc trail - and might not for the next year due to HSC) all of this is still relevant.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR USE OF THESE TRAILS, as a result you should help in just a little bit of maintenance - correcting YOUR damage.
If you have other commitments on a trail day then fine, that is completely understandable. But c'mon, you're all big kids you can organise yourself if that's your only legitimate excuse. Why not instead of the next time you ride at *insert one of the four trails you ride here* you organise a few of the 'regular BMU crew' to come for a build day, I'm sure someone like crank will be happy to come along and point you in the right direction. You wouldn't have to email anyone, it would be just as easy as organising a ride - and maybe at the end of the day you could fit a ride in? I'm positive everyone has a shovel, rake and mattock. If not buy them - you spend thousands on your bikes i'm sure you can spare $100 (at most) for those three tools from bunnings.
Again, jing i'm not having a go at you or anyone else on BMU. I respect the people on this forum, on a whole the average IQ here is much higher here than on RB - and i'm sorry for bring that average down with my whiny teenage boy ways.
Quickly to add:
I'm not saying you don't respect the trails - you spend to much time on the internet reading trail respect how-to's to not respect trails (JOKE!) :D- but I don't like the weak excuses.
And also: The majority of trail users wouldn't be part of BMU or RB, they wouldn't be part of any internet forum. Shock horror.
Question: Have you, or any of the others on this forum actually ever gone to an organised build day with the intention of helping not just "checking it out"? All of the build days i've been on have been a tonne of fun - it's not about back breaking labour, it's about doing the right thing and having a good time with some mates.
Why do people think that NONE of the BMU members do any sort trail work?
I've never seen you at a Loftus Maintenance day, so to me you don't do any trail work either Nat. :p
Maybe we need more photos to prove that BMU members DO attend track work days.....and we should all wear our BMU shirts.....
Why do people think that NONE of the BMU members do any sort trail work?
I've never seen you at a Loftus Maintenance day, so to me you don't do any trail work either Nat. :p
Maybe we need more photos to prove that BMU members DO attend track work days.....and we should all wear our BMU shirts.....
The way jing and some others talk it sounds as if they've never gone to a day and taken it seriously. But I may well be proven wrong. The BMU stereotype is that indeed a stereotype and i'm stereotyping.
Aaaannddd for the record I've never ridden Loftus - probably the best way to avoid maintenance arguments :P
Clifton
12-10-10, 11:32 PM
I dont get it, who are the others? It just seems like you're all targeting Jing because he cant do Saturdays and thats the only trail maintenance day we know about..
Matt Mead
12-10-10, 11:56 PM
I just don't think anyone needs to justify to anyone on why they can or cannot do trail maintenance. Congrats if you have the time or can make them to do it. But big fucking deal if you cant. No one knows shit about everyone's circumstances.
I dont get it, who are the others? It just seems like you're all targeting Jing because he cant do Saturdays and thats the only trail maintenance day we know about..
It's not about the specific one day a month. Organise yourself! many people (some of whom are on RB) go out on they're own initiative and do it, why can't you?
And jing is targeted because he talked about it.
Nat it's ok. I'm not offended. I see a couple of your points and at least h spent the time to write up that is pretty long. This is why I put off posting this in the foim because I know it is super hard to discuss this subject without other preconceived notions. I could have not typed anything but I feel the community was degrading and I wanted to vent "hey it's my blog!!".
I personally think for trail work to be more popular it needs to be ulimately more accessible. Dumed down if u want to call it that.
Sad thing is we all love riding MTb but still end up pointing fingers at each other.
It's not about the specific one day a month. Organise yourself! many people (some of whom are on RB) go out on they're own initiative and do it, why can't you?
And jing is targeted because he talked about it.
That's the thing I appreciate that ppl can organize themselves and that's great but if people couldn't organize themselves do u think it's plain wrong?? If u answer yes to that ur one step closer to hitler lolol
Think about it. Is it wrong if people didn't want to go out of their way and subsequently are they locusts??
It's not about the specific one day a month. Organise yourself! many people (some of whom are on RB) go out on they're own initiative and do it, why can't you?
You're still young! Wait 'til you grow up and realise there are other priorities in life that need to be taken care of before you're actually free to ride/trackwork.. you'll realise that some people have more time than others and you'll understand that better, you will see :)
You run a small business.. you can't argue that you can't organise yourself + a few mates.
I'm going to be blunt, and I know it won't make me friends. BMUer's come off as lazy, trend followers with a little to much money. All of the above posts represent this notion. I don't think that anyone here is all three of those things.
I know it's hypocritical that i'm a RBer getting up in everyone's grill (yo!) and it's a silly argument that I don't even have a large hand in as I don't ride or dig these trails.. at all.
We're all part of a community and all of us should be inputting every bit we can. It really doesn't look like some people on this forum are doing that.
Anyway, i'm finshed having serious conversation as it seems we're going in a huge, brake rutted, dusty roundabout. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTBPdVpdMc)
Shit, that song is worse than i remembered.
Clifton
13-10-10, 12:20 AM
It's not about the specific one day a month. Organise yourself! many people (some of whom are on RB) go out on they're own initiative and do it, why can't you?
And jing is targeted because he talked about it.
Are you allowed to go out and start working on legal trails? Are there legal issues?
I dont think its as simple as turning up with a mattock at Loftus and fixing away all the damage.
And FYI I've been to maintenance days and will also be attending this Saturday :).
Clifton
13-10-10, 12:21 AM
The regular maintenance day is the 3rd Saturday of every month. It's in the thread title. All of the relevant information for getting involved in in the first post. Very little action has been taken from BMU members to get out and do some work on this track.
How many members are expected from an active number of 309? Please remember that not everyone can be as passionate about trail maintenance as you and make it to every months maintenance day. I myself have been in a situation where I have had the choice of havnt ridden in 2 weeks and only have Saturday morning free and will be busy again for a while. To go to maintenance or to ride? I know what most people would choose.
(In no way am I saying I dont enjoy trail maintenance and no way trying to disrespect you Grant)
The comparison to RB, well, RB has a whole section dedicated to trail work and mtb advocacy. Unfortunately BMU seems to have various threads echoing with their lack of responses. In my experience the number of people who associate with RB that participate in trail work and mtb advocacy issues dwarf the number of BMU members who make token efforts in any area.
RB has been around alot longer and I can say that alot of them have been into the sport alot longer. I look through the list of threads and find only one thread that relates to any trail we ride. Alot of others are trails I have never heard of or DH trails. If you're going to use the comparison going around, RB is alot broader so of course there will be more people who advocate for MTB .
There are always exceptions though - shout out to Andy!
^^ this
I really do wonder who are these people who do trail work just to have a go at others? I do trail work because I enjoy it and like riding tracks that are well looked after. It's bloody hard work a lot of the time and certainly not something I do just so I can have a go at others. I can't recall a time when I've done a full day of trail work at a time I've organised and then complained that no-one else turned up.
This is definitely not you! You do wonders for all us MTB'ers in Sydney.
One of the reasons I don't think the BMU/RB comparison is valid is because a comparison cannot really be made. I've said before that BMU generally appears to display an apathetic attitude to advocacy issues and helping with trail maintenance. RB appears to have a lot more members actively involved in these types of issues. It simply isn't fair on BMU to make such a comparison. If you really want to make a comparison though, have a look at the Trail Building section on RB. How many threads have been made in the last year and posts by RB members compared to the same type of activity on BMU. Click on the number of replies to get a list of members who have posted and divide it by whatever number you want (except 0! ) to work out how many people are actively involved in trail maintenance, building and advocacy issues. It will be significantly more than if you did the same thing with the various threads on BMU.
Same as I said before, much more experienced/older members of the sport and nearly 30 times the amount of active members. Are there x30 more advocacy threads?
Also a couple of replies to Nat's post.
Posting video's, blogging and having 6 thousand posts on a forum that's only a year and half old IS NOT promoting the sport.
This is definitely promoting the sport and people outside the world of mountain biking can see how much fun it is. Mountain biking (cycling in general) is become alot more mainstream and councils are taking note!
Question: Have you, or any of the others on this forum actually ever gone to an organised build day with the intention of helping not just "checking it out"? All of the build days i've been on have been a tonne of fun - it's not about back breaking labour, it's about doing the right thing and having a good time with some mates. Saying you don't have experience and don't have tools is piss weak. Trail building is not exactly rocket science.
Yes there are people on this forum who do go to maintence days, to give back to the trails they ride on. Who goes to "check it out"?
If you have other commitments on a trail day then fine, that is completely understandable. But c'mon, you're all big kids you can organise yourself if that's your only legitimate excuse.
yet to go to a build day at an xc trail - and might not for the next year due to HSC
This is what you call hypocrisy dude.
Btw Nat, not having a go at you :).
This is what you call hypocrisy dude.
I'll pay that. But if you flick through the events page here, there would be a ride organised every weekend.
Very few people without an interest in mtbing would watch a amateur xc video or bother to read a shit fight on a relatively small mtb forum about digging holes. Posting happy snaps is not a form of advocacy. Full stop.
Matt Mead
13-10-10, 12:30 AM
You run a small business.. you can't argue that you can't organise yourself + a few mates.
I'm going to be blunt, and I know it won't make me friends. BMUer's come off as lazy, trend followers with a little to much money. All of the above posts represent this notion. I don't think that anyone here is all three of those things.
I know it's hypocritical that i'm a RBer getting up in everyone's grill (yo!) and it's a silly argument that I don't even have a large hand in as I don't ride or dig these trails.. at all.
We're all part of a community and all of us should be inputting every bit we can. It really doesn't look like some people on this forum are doing that.
Anyway, i'm finshed having serious conversation as it seems we're going in a huge, brake rutted, dusty roundabout. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTBPdVpdMc)
Shit, that song is worse than i remembered.
Lol
Clifton
13-10-10, 12:34 AM
Very few people without an interest in mtbing would watch a amateur xc video or bother to read a shit fight on a relatively small mtb forum about digging holes. Posting happy snaps is not a form of advocacy. Full stop.
People see photos of people having a good time at a ride and it makes a person want to get out and ride. Isn't that what its all about?
You run a small business.. you can't argue that you can't organise yourself + a few mates.
I'm going to be blunt, and I know it won't make me friends. BMUer's come off as lazy, trend followers with a little to much money. All of the above posts represent this notion. I don't think that anyone here is all three of those things.
I know it's hypocritical that i'm a RBer getting up in everyone's grill (yo!) and it's a silly argument that I don't even have a large hand in as I don't ride or dig these trails.. at all.
We're all part of a community and all of us should be inputting every bit we can. It really doesn't look like some people on this forum are doing that.
Anyway, i'm finshed having serious conversation as it seems we're going in a huge, brake rutted, dusty roundabout. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTBPdVpdMc)
Shit, that song is worse than i remembered.
Your comments make less sense here. It made more sense in your first few posts but it makes less sense here.
Yes i am a business owner and yes i can organise things. I choose not to purposely. Why? I value my business over trail work. Simple as that.
I will always select to do business first and trail work second. In fact if you have owned a business before you would know that business does not = free passes. It actually = more devotion and more dedication to look after then any job you might ever acquire.
I asked grant previously over the phone and wanted his answer to this question too and i got a response of "it depends on the individual". I take it to mean that he understands that if the individual says work is > trail work then that is that. Full stop.
For people who don't frequent other forums like RB (me for example), it's really hard to know of any other track work days organised else where.
I do Loftus Maintenance days only because that is the only one I'm aware of. If you tell me there are maintenance days else where (in advance of cause)....I'll rock up to those as well.....
It's not hard, nor does it take that much time or effort, to make initial contact with a club to find out about trail maintenance at their venues. It could be that people have to spend 5 minutes less looking through CRC to send an email or make a phone call. That doesn't sound too hard.
I have tried in the past to get someone from BMU involved in trail work after they said to just contact them next time I was heading out. I did that and got no response.
It's not just about trail maintenance. Have a look at all of the advocacy threads around. Very few people make any effort to comment or help out. Some people have had the time to complain that writing a short letter and sending emails is too hard and it should all be done using survey monkey links!
The RB vs BMU thing needs to be forgotten - because only one party really cares.
Posting video's, blogging and having 6 thousand posts on a forum that's only a year and half old IS NOT promoting the sport. I'm not having a go at you jing - I respect you. I don't think that you buying a new bike a week is a bad thing. I enjoy your reviews. But you and others need to pull your head out of your ass, posting on the internet is not promoting the sport.
I don't want to sound like i'm all high and mighty, I really couldn't care less if you don't help out - but trying to justify you not helping with some complex 3,534 word argument is just not on.
If you have other commitments on a trail day then fine, that is completely understandable. But c'mon, you're all big kids you can organise yourself if that's your only legitimate excuse. Why not instead of the next time you ride at *insert one of the four trails you ride here* you organise a few of the 'regular BMU crew' to come for a build day, I'm sure someone like crank will be happy to come along and point you in the right direction. You wouldn't have to email anyone, it would be just as easy as organising a ride - and maybe at the end of the day you could fit a ride in? I'm positive everyone has a shovel, rake and mattock. If not buy them - you spend thousands on your bikes i'm sure you can spare $100 (at most) for those three tools from bunnings.
The RB/BMU point I took as a comparison. I didn't think Jing was trying to start anything by making the comparison.
I think that posting the videos, etc is good for the sport, but that is all people see from BMU. There is very little done 'on the ground'. As the maority of advocacy and maintenance threads on here show, it's apparently a little too hard.
Jing is unfortunately the one who posted the blog, after discussion woth others who were not prepared to say anythign I believe. I'm not targetting him. I'm simply replying to his comments and thought it would make for a good discussion topic. But there are a lot of people who have read the blog that have taken it the same way as Nat has described above, just trying to justify why people don't give back to mtb.
Having other committments is fine. On the other hand, I can think of a significant number of people who are able to organise themselves around work (without taking a day off) and family and real life to get involved in mtb advocacy and trail maintenance. It's disappointing that the adults of BMU can't do the same thing. And I'm not saying anywhere that people should go out and buy their own tools, but Nat raises an interesting point comparing the relatively low cost ($100 is a very expensive shovel!) of tools to peoples bikes. But again, I'm not saying anyone should spend their money in a particular way. :) Tools can be borrowed from friends, family or possibly even mtb clubs if you contact them.
I dont get it, who are the others? It just seems like you're all targeting Jing because he cant do Saturdays and thats the only trail maintenance day we know about..
Jing isn't being targeted. He simply posted the blog making comments that others were apparently unable or didn't want to make.
That's the thing I appreciate that ppl can organize themselves and that's great but if people couldn't organize themselves do u think it's plain wrong?? If u answer yes to that ur one step closer to hitler lolol
Think about it. Is it wrong if people didn't want to go out of their way and subsequently are they locusts??
Jing, an adult not being able to organise time to make a phone call or to email a club to find out about track work; or to type up and email a letter regarding mtb advocacy is plain wrong. Comparing that to being like Hitler is a little immature. Please think about the second bit you've posted there. To put it another way, is it wrong that people have this perception of BMU when all they see is lots of riding and very little to no support for important trail maintenance and mtb advocacy issues?
You're still young! Wait 'til you grow up and realise there are other priorities in life that need to be taken care of before you're actually free to ride/trackwork.. you'll realise that some people have more time than others and you'll understand that better, you will see :)
Again, as adults people should be able to organise their time effectively. I understand that not everyone can attend every maintenance day, but there other ways to get involved and help out.
Are you allowed to go out and start working on legal trails? Are there legal issues?
I dont think its as simple as turning up with a mattock at Loftus and fixing away all the damage.
And FYI I've been to maintenance days and will also be attending this Saturday :).
It's not hard to put in some effort to contact the right people and find out what can and can't be done.
The narrow focus on Loftus is very interesting. There have been a significant number of advocacy issues raised recently that have received very little attention from BMU. It's not just about Loftus. What about Yellowmundee or Appin or Manly Dam? Has anyone contacted anyone from clubs or councils looking after these areas? If enough people contact them then they will see a need for organised trail maintenance and perhaps do something about it.
yet to go to a build day at an xc trail - and might not for the next year due to HSC) all of this is still relevant.
every thing you argue about is flawed because of this one line..... you sit there all high and mighty carrying on about BMU guys apparently not working on trails and then you have the hide to say you have never attended because of UNI commitments..... puts you in the same boat as the reat of us Nat. The same 'rest of us' that you are complaining about for apparently not turning up to trail maintenance days because we have other more important things in our life. And to add insult to injury you want us to do the right thing yet YOU confess to riding illegal trails.... quite hypocritical isnt it....
Everyone needs to pull their heads in and realise not everything is for everybody. Some like playing in the mud, some dont, and if your the one who does get use to the fact there are lots who wont.
next time i am at the Dam i might spend a quick 10 minutes at the trail head and do a quick survey as riders enter the trail. My question will be have you ever attended a trail maintenance day? I bet you i would be lucky to get 1% answer yes out of a probable 50 riders i would survey. There are simply so many people who ride mountain bikes that would not have, yet people pick on an online forum because its out there for people to see...
Out of curiosity, how many dollars would event organisers put back into the trails? I would be interested to see just how much track work/dollars the likes of the Scott event held last weekend or the Angry Doctor series, Highland Fling etc put back into the trails..... did they ask riders to hang around and do a quick hour of maintenance to help the trails? I bet they didnt...... given there are several thousand entrants at each of these events one would only hope that several hundred people and several thousand dollars would be put back into maintaining the trails.... I have no idea, can anyone here answer if these large events/organisations organise trail maintenance days to fix the damge done after thousands of bikes have travelled the trails....
I bet you i would be lucky to get 1% answer yes out of a probable 50 riders i would survey.
Half a rider would say yes? Sorry couldn't help myself lol :loling:
Out of curiosity, how many dollars would event organisers put back into the trails? I would be interested to see just how much track work/dollars the likes of the Scott event held last weekend or the Angry Doctor series, Highland Fling etc put back into the trails..... did they ask riders to hang around and do a quick hour of maintenance to help the trails? I bet they didnt...... given there are several thousand entrants at each of these events one would only hope that several hundred people and several thousand dollars would be put back into maintaining the trails.... I have no idea, can anyone here answer if these large events/organisations organise trail maintenance days to fix the damge done after thousands of bikes have travelled the trails....
Can't speak for most events, I know AROC have put a fair amount of money and their own time and effort into fixing up Mogo after the wind and devastation at 'Angry Doctor'. Can't remember the actual number, I'll have a look.
I'd imagine/hope most big event organisers would put back into repairing the trails after their events.
You don't/can't get positive support through negativity.
Alienrain
13-10-10, 09:26 AM
wow... what a shit fight
Given the choice i will have to side with Jing, i agree with everything he has posted on his blog.
Im a casual MTB'er, i ride Loftus at most once a month, probably rode Appin and MD 3 times the last year. I dont choose to be a casual a rider, im casual because i have time constraints and with the time i do have i rather be riding then fixing up the trails. The choice is simple really, do i ride that one time i get to ride once a month or participate in trail maintenance? duh!! I make no apologies for this.
Those of you who choose to maintain the trails, good for you, i respect that, but please dont try to lay those ideals on others because you have no clue what their situation or circumstances are. Everyone are at different stages of their lives and with that come different priorities, i have 2 kids and my wife and i work fulltime......those of you in the same boat as me will appreciate it when i say, "time is of the essence". My family comes first, riding comes second, trail maintenance doesnt make it into this equation sorry.
Perhaps everyone should advocate that the NWPS lobby the govt for more funding so they can have dedicated "trail fixers". Heck i pay my taxes and if the sport gets greater traction in the future its not as far fetched as it seems.
Everyone needs to agreee to disagree, but dont get pissed off doing it :p
Good thing i dont have a BMU jersey :p
In my experience most people put back where and when they can.
Some people don't and really who cares.
My 1 peeve is riders who blast on past as you are trying to do the trail work or worth those that get angsty that they have to stop or move off track to get past.
Thankfully that's only happened a few times.
It would be great if every rider helped out on trail days but it doesn't have to be official days. Andy over at BMORC came up with his 5% guide. That is 5% of your riding time should be in some form of trail maintenance.
Whether it trimming back the over growth or just throwing a few rocks into a rut to prevent it rutting further it all helps.
It's not just about trail maintenance. Have a look at all of the advocacy threads around. Very few people make any effort to comment or help out. Some people have had the time to complain that writing a short letter and sending emails is too hard and it should all be done using survey monkey links!
I think you are talking about me there!!:p
I was just trying to make a point to make these sort of stuff more accessible. Isn't that a fair point to make that these sort of things aren't really accessible to anyone?? especially those whos only sort of MTB info only comes from BMU?
Fair enough Grant you have years of experience in MTB and knows of many contacts throughout the community, but for people just started getting serious about MTB (I think that's 80% BMU), it's not easy to find these sort of contacts.
I'll post a classic example of how all these MTB advocacy is not accessible OR not really understood by some, it's a conversation I've just had with Iceman this morning.
Vonk, Gijs [9:02 AM]:
heated debate on BMU ey
Yiu, Kevin [9:02 AM]:
yeah!!! not fair on BMU though cause we do do trail work...
Vonk, Gijs [9:03 AM]:
i dont...
Yiu, Kevin [9:06 AM]:
cause you are lazy!!!....therefore you should be shot to the ground!!! ....lol
Vonk, Gijs [9:08 AM]:
when was the last time u did any trail work?
Yiu, Kevin [9:09 AM]:
before i was busy with my wedding.....
I've attended at least 4-5 last year....
Vonk, Gijs [9:09 AM]:
really?
Yiu, Kevin [9:10 AM]:
surprised?
Vonk, Gijs [9:10 AM]:
yeah lol
Yiu, Kevin [9:10 AM]:
i think that's the problem, we do it but people don't know about it....
Vonk, Gijs [9:11 AM]:
post that!
Yiu, Kevin [9:11 AM]:
post what?
Vonk, Gijs [9:11 AM]:
i think that's the problem, we do it but people don't know about it....
Yiu, Kevin [9:11 AM]:
i have but, i was branned not making enough effort as well.....*sigh*
Vonk, Gijs [9:13 AM]:
what a bs, isnt it a casual gathering anyways?
Yiu, Kevin [9:17 AM]:
trail work?
it can be, but ppl are making it very very serious business....
Vonk, Gijs [9:19 AM]:
dont really get it
Yiu, Kevin [9:19 AM]:
don't get what?
Vonk, Gijs [9:19 AM]:
the whole trail work thing
Yiu, Kevin [9:20 AM]:
can i post what we've just talked about here?
makes for a interesting point of view....
Vonk, Gijs [9:21 AM]:
yeah sure, i prolly havent ridden long enough MTB in Oz to understand it though
Yiu, Kevin [9:21 AM]:
someone like you, who just starting out MTB, don't really understand the whole thing, therefore not really interested....
Vonk, Gijs [9:21 AM]:
we dont worry about these things in Holland
Yiu, Kevin [9:22 AM]:
would you be interested though if you rode a bit more....
??
Vonk, Gijs [9:22 AM]:
or it is not needed or the local government is looking after it
Yiu, Kevin [9:24 AM]:
what do you mean?
Yiu, Kevin [9:28 AM]:
what do you mean?
Vonk, Gijs [9:28 AM]:
i mean i never heard about trail work in NL
Yiu, Kevin [9:29 AM]:
but have you in AUS, or since you've joined BMU??
Vonk, Gijs [9:29 AM]:
yeah sure
Yiu, Kevin [9:30 AM]:
how?
Vonk, Gijs [9:30 AM]:
i reckon if u ride more u dont need track work!
Yiu, Kevin [9:30 AM]:
and why aren't you helping?
Vonk, Gijs [9:31 AM]:
as i dont understand the need for it
Yiu, Kevin [9:32 AM]:
off the record: where do you want me to quote you from?...
Vonk, Gijs [9:32 AM]:
anywhere u like... i dont care...
Yiu, Kevin [9:32 AM]:
is BMU you only source of MTB info?
Vonk, Gijs [9:32 AM]:
yes sir
and u of course
Yiu, Kevin [9:33 AM]:
well i get mine too from BMU...
Vonk, Gijs [9:33 AM]:
lol
Don't know any Gijs... sounds like a knob head...
Don't know any Gijs... sounds like a knob head...
Agreed - although he sounds a little like you? Long lost brothers maybe?
Ride True
13-10-10, 10:00 AM
Subscribed to get notifications on posts.
Interesting thread with good/bad points.
Grant you mention good points but you seem to easily leave other points out which don't go in your favour.
1. Your constant remarks of "BMU as a community" is a blanket statement and you should know more than anyone that people on BMU has contributed.
2. "To put it another way, is it wrong that people have this perception of BMU when all they see is lots of riding and very little to no support for important trail maintenance and mtb advocacy issues?" Yes because they are assuming that there is little to no support for important trail maintenance. What is their idea of little to nothing? Did they take into consideration the varying conditions as stated by others? ie how small the group is and how young the group is?
3. I mentioned the fact that other forums have next to no trail building threads ie actual pictures and reports and etc to which you said that they worked in the background. I certainly don't know people that think badly of those other forums even though they organise rides like no tomorrow? A bit biased? Or do they know everyone on those forums?
Have said mtb enthusiast ever built or ridden on illegal trails? How does that effect the MTB community as a whole and the image people associate with us? Not to add fuel to the fire but i would find it ultra hypocritical that people campaign for legal trails and then go and ride illegal trails?
Again, as adults people should be able to organise their time effectively. I understand that not everyone can attend every maintenance day, but there other ways to get involved and help out.
Well I'm glad that you understand that everyone are in different situations and stages of life.
When my mtb got stolen i still went to the trail days.
If you can't make the days due to previous committments so be it, and I won't hold any ill thoughts towards you.
If you can't make the days because you are riding else where so be it, i will feel slightly less of you
If you can't make the days because you are riding the trail we are working on you are a dick. that is just rude, i will call you parasitic again.
Using the i didn't know it was on is a weak excuse given its been going for year on the same day at the same place doing the same thing.
I think given the proximity and regular use of Loftus on this forum it makes sense that we try and back the RNP as a community and give back! We all started riding there and a lot of us live very close so giving 4 hours a month shouldn't be to much effort.
no one has ever spoken poorly about Jing's not attending; i have said he works and that he can't get out of it and its all good in that regard.
/prepares flame suit.
/end rant.
If you can't make the days because you are riding the trail we are working on you are a dick. that is just rude, i will call you parasitic again.
I got shouted at by some MTB'ers at the dam for 'being in the way' back in the day on a monthly track work day. You had to laugh, really.
If you want to get good at filling brake bumps, donate a weekend of your time at Thredbo helping the boys there. An endless job of filling out blown corners and brake bumps.
Andy i appreciate it mate but i have heard of people talking about me not attending.
To be honest i don't think there is too much wrong with that too because i suppose i didn't attend?
It is hard though because i tried to type from the perspective of not just myself but obviously i will get picked out because i wrote it. Something i am ready to accept.
i dont think other people should be speaking about your not attending Jing, like i said your reason is valid...
I think given your writing the original entry sort of opened the door to a world of pain!, if other people have had issue maybe they should have addressed it more privately.
Gekigengar
13-10-10, 11:33 AM
I don't know if what i write now will do anything to this debate but this is just a snippet of Buddhist beliefs.
1. For everything we do there is a Cause and effect ie. the actions we do should be justified by a cause and we must also know the consequences of that action and not be ignorant.
2. Do good deeds, as a human we must all help others out when in need and expect nothing back. We help solely due to the fact we want to help, there is no reward and there is no expectation to be paid back. If there is any sense of reward it is the act of giving itself.
What I'm trying to express here is, don't be ignorant, know what you are doing to the trails and don't destroy them, so if we can maintain all the trails we do ride.
Also when someone does trail work, we all do fully whole kindheartedly appreciate what you are doing but are you doing this expecting the whole community to repay you back with trail work, shouldn't you just think of this as "I'm doing this for the community".
I may just be adding oil to this argument.
Speaking for myself, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve managed to get my mountain bike on singletrack in the bush this year. The vast majority of my rides have been on the cruisers on local rides, or somewhere like Olympic Park. When I do get the mountain bike onto dirt, its generally a firetrail up the blue mountains, which are national parks. I’ve got a national parks pass, so I consider Im paying my own way for use of national parks each year (particularly given it costs nothing to ride a bike into a NP!). When I do get out for a ride its usually a case of ‘hey Ive got a spare few hours, I’m gonna grab the bike and go for a ride’. I’ve replied to numerous aspects of the NPWS online thing on mountain biking, and I’m going to the meeting on Monday night re. the Knapsack trails. I’m quite comfortable with my ratio of what I ‘take’ and what I ‘give back’, and I ride responsibly (no big power skids on berms, not riding after rain etc).
I think its great to encourage more people to get actively involved in supporting mountain biking, whether it be the letter/email writing thing, or taking part in trail maintenance days. I don’t believe it’s the right approach to try and make people feel guilty about not doing these. A positive empowering approach is much more effective than a negative guilt trip.
Speaking for myself, I can count on one hand the number of times I?ve managed to get my mountain bike on singletrack in the bush this year. The vast majority of my rides have been on the cruisers on local rides, or somewhere like Olympic Park. When I do get the mountain bike onto dirt, its generally a firetrail up the blue mountains, which are national parks. I?ve got a national parks pass, so I consider Im paying my own way for use of national parks each year (particularly given it costs nothing to ride a bike into a NP!). When I do get out for a ride its usually a case of ?hey Ive got a spare few hours, I?m gonna grab the bike and go for a ride?. I?ve replied to numerous aspects of the NPWS online thing on mountain biking, and I?m going to the meeting on Monday night re. the Knapsack trails. I?m quite comfortable with my ratio of what I ?take? and what I ?give back?, and I ride responsibly (no big power skids on berms, not riding after rain etc).
I think its great to encourage more people to get actively involved in supporting mountain biking, whether it be the letter/email writing thing, or taking part in trail maintenance days. I don?t believe it?s the right approach to try and make people feel guilty about not doing these. A positive empowering approach is much more effective than a negative guilt trip.
Amen to that.....:)
I reckon it should go by the number of bikes; the more u have the more u should help out... So Kevin and Jing should feel guilty! ;)
i only have 2 mtbs currently but grant has 5-6 :p
plus your idea is flawwed. Not like we can ride 2 bikes at the same time!
It should go on this rating
How heavy you are....
How heavy your bikes is....
What tyres you are running....
;)
O ohh Jing and Kevin are the same person!
12:13 PM Yiu, Kevin
i can't ride all the bike at once you know....
:p Sorry I'm out, will stop derailing thread.
I've got an idea!
Let's start a "Trail Maintenance Day Picture Thread"
:loling: :cool:
You don't/can't get positive support through negativity.
Quoted for truth.
Justin Fox
13-10-10, 01:04 PM
Wow. I've just read through all of this.
Since I've fallen out of the hobby of late (yep that's what it was to me, always did love the build more than the ride) it all reads like crap.
Grant vs. Jing is how I see it. Nerves are being hit, big time and both of you dragging in 'BMU vs. RB' (ridiculous considering I started BMU because of my hate towards much loved losers on Farkin).
Grant: IMO it's pretty low of you to post Jing's blog post up here in public. If Jing wanted to do so he would have so it's pretty obvious you've done it for your own satisfaction.
Both of you need to take a step back and look at yourselves, maybe go out for a ride or something. Just agree to disagree.
mtb5150
13-10-10, 01:20 PM
next time i am at the Dam i might spend a quick 10 minutes at the trail head and do a quick survey as riders enter the trail. My question will be have you ever attended a trail maintenance day? I bet you i would be lucky to get 1% answer yes out of a probable 50 riders i would survey. ..
That would be half a person?
Justin Fox
13-10-10, 01:21 PM
For the record:
I always really wanted to get out to a trail maintenance day but the God honest truth is that I was always too lazy to attend.
Does this make me a bad person? I don't think so. I've given and continue to give to various things in various ways and in most cases the ways I give come more natural to me than being out on a trail with unfamiliar tools in hand.
One thing I am sure of though is that I hate being made to feel guilt.
Grant, your heart is in the right place in regards to maintaining trails but maybe the way you're going about recruiting people isn't right? Inspiration works for me (as opposed to singling out individuals and making them feel guilty).
its all in the word 'probable' mate ;)
Grant, your heart is in the right place in regards to maintaining trails but maybe the way you're going about recruiting people isn't right? Inspiration works for me (as opposed to singling out individuals and making them feel guilty).
Your not wrong Justin. although not aimed at trail maintenance is it any wonder people dont show up to some stuff. With replies like the ones below is it any wonder people are feeling negative towards stuff.....
As an aside, about 150 views of this thread since 8:45pm on the 3rd and only one extra person making comment. I think his says something unfortunate about the BMU 'community'.
Judging by the number of people on BMU who seem to have posted comments already everyone must be writing some extremely detailed responses, checking them over, making sure they match with relevant research and studies and just holding off until after they have attended the public forums before they get submitted!
Over 650 views of this thread and less than 10 members prepared to say they've posted their comments.
I was just trying to make a point to make these sort of stuff more accessible. Isn't that a fair point to make that these sort of things aren't really accessible to anyone?? especially those whos only sort of MTB info only comes from BMU?
Fair enough Grant you have years of experience in MTB and knows of many contacts throughout the community, but for people just started getting serious about MTB (I think that's 80% BMU), it's not easy to find these sort of contacts.
I'm not sure how much more accessible advocacy issues can be made for people. Most of the threads have all of the information about an issue, the appropriate contact information and some even have sample letters! The only way I can think of to make things 'more accessible' would be have someone else do it for you.
It's the same as developing these contacts you speak of. Talk to people, email them, get involved in things. It's not too hard.
I think targetting Grant for wanting to get more people involved is tad rude Brad...
I called those that don't attend parasitic.
BMU is a community, apparently just of people with bikes not cyclists that want to further the sport they enjoy by giving back to those that make it possible; i think a community would want to get out there and help make the RNP a great place to keep riding.
If we don't show support to the RNP and show that we go and look after what they have given us they could just close them all down.
Grant knows who to contact cause he has made contact and looked... called people, speaks to the maintainers of trails and actively tries to get involed.
He doesn't sit behind a pc and whingie that he doesnt know about stuff!
every thing you argue about is flawed because of this one line.....
You've conveniently ignored the first part where Nat talks about attending build days and them being a lot of fun. Therefore, your argument is flawed. :)
3. I mentioned the fact that other forums have next to no trail building threads ie actual pictures and reports and etc to which you said that they worked in the background. I certainly don't know people that think badly of those other forums even though they organise rides like no tomorrow? A bit biased? Or do they know everyone on those forums?
Sorry Jing but the forum you mentioned was NobMob and I don't see how anyone could say that there is little to no trail advocacy or maintenance activity happening with involvement from the members of that forum.
Also when someone does trail work, we all do fully whole kindheartedly appreciate what you are doing but are you doing this expecting the whole community to repay you back with trail work, shouldn't you just think of this as "I'm doing this for the community".
I can't think of anyone who does trail maintenance or is involved in advocacy issues that expects anyone to repay them. I was confused by this point when it was brought up in one of the blog posts too.:confused:
Now quoted in its entirety Grant so you can read what was actual posted....Putting the two paragraphs together would lead one to assume Nat has attended illegal DJ and DH build days and has noted he has not attended any XC build days....
Question: Have you, or any of the others on this forum actually ever gone to an organised build day with the intention of helping not just "checking it out"? All of the build days i've been on have been a tonne of fun - it's not about back breaking labour, it's about doing the right thing and having a good time with some mates. Saying you don't have experience and don't have tools is piss weak. Trail building is not exactly rocket science. Though berm making and transition building takes a little bit of practice. Filling in braking ruts or moving fallen trees does not take ANY 'building experience'.
Again, without sounding high and mighty: I've been riding mtb's and bmx's for four years now. Within my first year of riding I understood that as someone who was using those trails I had to help in maintaining them. Though for the first 3 or so years of my riding I have been riding primarily illegal dj and dh trails and only recently been getting into the xc thing (and yet to go to a build day at an xc trail - and might not for the next year due to HSC) all of this is still relevant.
Your not wrong Justin. although not aimed at trail maintenance is it any wonder people dont show up to some stuff. With replies like the ones below is it any wonder people are feeling negative towards stuff.....
Did you read all of the positive comments and reports in all of the other threads before those comments were made? They didn't seem to be working either:(.
Justin Fox
13-10-10, 01:42 PM
Why is everyone trying to pigeon hole BMU?
I started the forum because some cocks on Farkin were having a go at me for being more into my bike than riding (and seeing something wrong with that?!).
Bikes MOVE us.
Take it literally if you want, but bikes are an emotive thing for me. I love bikes, they move me on an emotional level.
I'm happy that there's a clicky group who call BMU home, that's more than I ever expected. I never expected anything but acceptance of being into what you're into. Each to their own.
The last thing I wanted on here was the same vibe as Farkin. IE: Moderators doing nothing about one member getting attacked by other members (ie: I was attacked by Farkin members).
Anyways. What am I doing here? I'm heading back to the fish forums to debate and argue about the hobby of taking wild caught fish and corals from our environment.
Grant vs. Jing is how I see it. Nerves are being hit, big time and both of you dragging in 'BMU vs. RB' (ridiculous considering I started BMU because of my hate towards much loved losers on Farkin).
Grant: IMO it's pretty low of you to post Jing's blog post up here in public. If Jing wanted to do so he would have so it's pretty obvious you've done it for your own satisfaction.
Sorry Justin but this was never about Jing vs me. I tried to encourage Jing to post it up as an open discussion as others apparently did as well. I thought after out first phone call we had agreed to disagree, however, the second blog post directly linked everything to BMU so I thought everyone should have a right of reply. Which is what's happening. :) Also, as I've said previously, I don't believe Jing meant anything other than a comparison with the BMU/RB link although it is something he keeps referring to in BMUs defence of how it is perceived by others. I'm disappointed that you think it was a low act to post up a discussion topic involving the BMU membership.
That's the end of my lunch break so maybe I'll see some people at the Sutherland NPWS workshop tonight. :)
In any case. I just want people reading this to know that a couple of us as a result of this "discussion" have being thinking of actively promoting more trail work related stuff in our own bmu ways and hopefully that will bring about more of an understanding in regards to how our member's feel about trails.
Grant i will see you at a ride in the future and potentially some trail work.
Ride True
13-10-10, 02:22 PM
In any case. I just want people reading this to know that a couple of us as a result of this "discussion" have being thinking of actively promoting more trail work related stuff in our own bmu ways and hopefully that will bring about more of an understanding in regards to how our member's feel about trails.
Grant i will see you at a ride in the future and potentially some trail work.
+ 1.
And guys... stop editing please! I can't keep up with the reading :)
BTW is this about actual trail maintenace OR MTB advocacy in general?
Anyway who cares.... but at the end of the day BMU IS contributing to the MTB community, where members do do work at their local tracks. But to some what BMU is contributing is still not enough, because we are not contributing 110%. And to FORCE all of us to do EVERYTHING right for the MTB community is just not on IMO.
Try to force all members in RB to give 100% back to the community and see what results you'll get, just because BMU is small doesn't mean we can be picked on.....and this is the way you are coming across Grant. Keeping tabs on everyone not contributing, and using this as ammo to shoot down those who don't contribute to your ideals.....I know you are a teacher and like to take roll calls on everything, but tell me it isn't so when i see something like this...:confused:
Those who have made comments...
Nerf Herder
The Brown Hornet
me
FelixR
ido09s
Jing
elim
milkman
taibo
thecat
Ride True
Clifton
hewey
And some who aren't members here.
Good to see BMU ppl contributing from your roll call, but are you calling this lack of contribution from BMU because you didn't see 100% attendance?
It just burns me inside that BMU is blanketed as NOT contributing when members actually have.....if i knew it's such a hassle just riding my MTB, I would of given up on the sport a long time ago.
So the question is doing JUST trail work is still not enough, and not putting back to the community?? Will this stop when everyone becomes the Minister for MTB??
I still respect all the work you do Grant to help MTB, but please pay a lil more respect/notice to what we do as well...
we may as well cross polenate
As has already been said, keep it clean and lets try and get some ideas on how to make things work better
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?214715-Is-this-the-right-attitude-towards-mtb-advocacy-and-trail-maintenance
wow i was expecting all sorts of nastiness but i guess its ok?
Hell even if it was bad but the community gets to have a fair discussion so be it.
I just had a 1.5hr discussion with tai over the phone and we raised some good points. We of course had our own opinions on a few aspects but overall the discussion was positive.
ironhide
13-10-10, 04:52 PM
I guess being a new member to both RB and BMU maybe I should say something.
First of all let me say that I am on both sides of the fence regarding trail building/maintenance.
I have been riding for around 6 months or so and to be totally honest didn’t have an idea of trail maintenance or trail building. But I met a couple of people who where into it and we spent some time "fixing" an established trail.
It’s not hard to organize. It took a few emails and there where 4 of us clearing trees, logs and doing general maintenance. You don’t have to bring a lot or own $1000 in tools and it doesn’t take a lot of time. Most rides we would spend about an hour after we have done a couple of laps of the trail just doing general maintenance. I agree a lot with what Nat says. Not a lot of effort, not a lot of time but every little bit counts.
In saying that, I can understand that a large amount of riders just don’t have the time or are too lazy. C’mon, big deal!!
Jing: Kudos to you for writing this up. But you are such an idiot for caring what others think. I been called the lead member of the grupetto by the guys that I ride with (for road and for MTB). But I’m not going to post a blog about it or let negatively affect my enjoyment of riding. Get out there and do something positive about it. Brush that off your shoulders dude.
Grant: I applaud all the work you have done for MTB. Personally, appreciate guys like you more than I post about. And to ALL the guys (and gals) who go out and work on trails week in and week out – THANK YOU! from a rider who uses the trails that you fix. The guys who work on Menai – Thank you! That is one amazing track. To the guys that work on Kentlyn (Craig and gang from RB) – Thank you! And Appin and Ourimbah and to any other trail builders/maintainers out there – THANK YOU!
Maybe that is the problem. Maybe these guys feel like some of ‘us’ are locusts because we ride through and show no appreciation for all the hard work they put in, and it is hard work (at times it can be fun as well). And honestly I can’t blame them if some of them feel like ‘we’ are just leeching. If you ride and ride and ride and you don’t make at least a small amount of effort to put back – then I guess being labeled a parasite is well deserved.
Regarding riding through while people are working on trails – this is not only rude but dangerous. What happens of you come around a corner at full speed, come off because of loose sole or a shovel in on the trail and impale yourself on a pick axe? Have some courteously and get off your bike and walk through/around.
And with this argument about passion vs trail building – it’s a chicken and the egg thing. You ride because there are trails and you build trails so you can ride. You can’t ride if the trails are all over grown and degraded and you can’t certainly build trails if there were no riders to ride them. Get me? You don’t need passion to go out and build trails, you just need to know that no trails = no riding.
I’ve done some trail work, commented on grants NSWNP thread; posted some positive comments regarding MTB’ing, but I’d hardly call that contributing.
As a final thought, before I signed up to this forum, I always thought that BMU were a bunch of well off guys who can afford lots of expensive bikes but are afraid of getting a bit of mud on their pristine KOM lycra. And I guess (no direct attack on Felix) posting a comment like “I've got an idea! Let's start a "Trail Maintenance Day Picture Thread" is not helping the stereotype is it? Are you making that thread because BMU actually want to maintain trails or are you making that thread because BMU just want to “show” that they are contributing? I hope it’s not the later.
Take this post with a grain of salt – I know I’m going to get flamed for it but as I said before – Big Deal!
- Mike
hey dude, appreciate the comments. Previously this was a blog comment. A personal blog which i talk about whatever i want. Most of which are thoughts in my mind *hence the title of my blog*.
I simply put my thoughts down on text. I guess that is my mistake. But to be honest given the discussion that has started i have no qualms with doing it again. I think it is turning out to be positive. It was a shit fight but now it is getting better!
As a final thought, before I signed up to this forum, I always thought that BMU were a bunch of well off guys who can afford lots of expensive bikes but are afraid of getting a bit of mud on their pristine KOM lycra. And I guess (no direct attack on Felix) posting a comment like ?I've got an idea! Let's start a "Trail Maintenance Day Picture Thread" is not helping the stereotype is it? Are you making that thread because BMU actually want to maintain trails or are you making that thread because BMU just want to ?show? that they are contributing? I hope it?s not the later.
:loling: all good!
I posted that to kind of cheer things up a bit..
I'm glad this is now turning into a healthy discussion!
Kinda hard for me to comment on this, as the build days here are few and far between for xc trails (not that I ride XC anyway).
I have no issues in helping out with maintinence, hell, I have even helped build a few dh tracks around canberra. Its usually a good laugh with a few mates, which helps pass time a bit, as it gets a bit boring after 4hrs.
I race bmx with parker, and we will usually help if track prep is needed and are there early enough.
I guess this topic relates to XC only as around here the DH trails are usually in pretty good condition (aside from stromlo because the management SEEM to not give a shit about it, but I might be wrong and they dont have the manpower or something).
I have noticed that at the races eveyone walks up the track, kicking loose rocks and stuff out of the way in an effort to keep the tracks presentable and free of debris, so I guess that counts as maintinence of sorts.
IN MY OPINION
Going through this I can kind of see why people tend to steer clear of trail maintinence issues, as most threads turn into a big shit-fight for one reason or another.
Also, no point comparing or relating BMU to RB.
PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS MY VIEW, COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT RIDE XC AND THEREFORE DOES NOT PARTICIPATE IN XC TRACK WORK (I ALSO WORK BOTH DAYS ON WEEKENDS SO I CANT GET TO THEM ANYWAY IF THERE ARE ANYWAY).
I dunno, I have always seen the trail maintenance days as a bit of fun and a chance to put a face to a name. Couldn't really call it Hard work.
More like spending a couple of hours with a few "bike" people, having a bit of a laugh and swinging some garden tools around.
I dont even ride at Loftus usually!
I guess for most, Riding is their leisure thing, so as soon as it starts to look like WORK, there will be a bit of a turn off. But really - It is a good laugh if you can spare some time.
I, for one, have learned heaps about maintaining and riding with respect for the trails, from reading this forum and coming to the odd maintenance day. Previous to this I would just ride alone, oblivious to damage I might be causing. Thanks to Grant for all the time & effort he puts in.
While I would encourage anyone to come join in - Its a choice thing. I do it cos I want to and dont expect anything else of anyone else.
Peace everyone :)
Daschmooze
13-10-10, 08:10 PM
Im a casual MTB'er, i ride Loftus at most once a month, probably rode Appin and MD 3 times the last year. I dont choose to be a casual a rider, im casual because i have time constraints and with the time i do have i rather be riding then fixing up the trails. The choice is simple really, do i ride that one time i get to ride once a month or participate in trail maintenance? duh!! I make no apologies for this.
Those of you who choose to maintain the trails, good for you, i respect that, but please dont try to lay those ideals on others because you have no clue what their situation or circumstances are. Everyone are at different stages of their lives and with that come different priorities, i have 2 kids and my wife and i work fulltime......those of you in the same boat as me will appreciate it when i say, "time is of the essence". My family comes first, riding comes second, trail maintenance doesnt make it into this equation sorry.
Perhaps everyone should advocate that the NWPS lobby the govt for more funding so they can have dedicated "trail fixers". Heck i pay my taxes and if the sport gets greater traction in the future its not as far fetched as it seems.
Everyone needs to agreee to disagree, but dont get pissed off doing it :p
Good thing i dont have a BMU jersey :p
I think the point being raised though is that trail maintenance is part and parcel of MTB riding and should be factored into your time to enjoy the sport. You wouldn't go into a shop and take stuff for your family and say "screw you I pay taxes, don't have time to pay - sorry" do you?
i am not sure if that analogy is the best way to describe things.
It is more like
The shop has a bunch of free items.
It is appreciable if you took those free items to put some money into a charity box.
However it isn't enforced that you have to put money into that charity box too.
On top of that instead of putting money into the chairty box you might render services in other forms back to the shop which aids said shop.
Alienrain
13-10-10, 10:03 PM
i am not sure if that analogy is the best way to describe things.
It is more like
The shop has a bunch of free items.
It is appreciable if you took those free items to put some money into a charity box.
However it isn't enforced that you have to put money into that charity box too.
On top of that instead of putting money into the chairty box you might render services in other forms back to the shop which aids said shop.
no no, its more akin to those guys handing out free promotional goodies at Wynyard station some morning. I take it and i feel guilty taking it sometimes, but im not obliged to later go and purchase the retail product from the shops....... :p
Now quoted in its entirety Grant so you can read what was actual posted....Putting the two paragraphs together would lead one to assume Nat has attended illegal DJ and DH build days and has noted he has not attended any XC build days....
Ah, so while i'm not condoning illegal trail building, he has at least gone out and tried to support his local mtb community. I can respect the effort, if a little misguided in the current climate of discussion with NPWS, that Nat has put in there.:)
Good to see BMU ppl contributing from your roll call, but are you calling this lack of contribution from BMU because you didn't see 100% attendance?
It just burns me inside that BMU is blanketed as NOT contributing when members actually have
Actually on that list 5 of the 12 are not regular posters on here or don't consider themselves part of the BMU community.
The odd BMU member has dfinitely made a real contribution. That is, going beyond posting pictures and reviews. Have a look at all of the advocacy threads and you can see why BMU has developed a reputation as a community that doesn't give anything back.
we may as well cross polenate
As has already been said, keep it clean and lets try and get some ideas on how to make things work better
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?214715-Is-this-the-right-attitude-towards-mtb-advocacy-and-trail-maintenance
There are some good ideas on there. A few of which I've already mentioned. Hopefully coming from someone else they could be taken notice of and acted upon.:)
ukalipt
13-10-10, 10:29 PM
i agree with encouraging people to attend volunteer trail maintenance.
i have only ever attended one or two - i think two - honestly i can't remember
i can't make it to many due to family commitments - kids soccer in winter is
still too early until they age a bit and i have mentioned at our WSMTB club
meetings maybe we should investigate a sunday maintenance day. ours are
always held on saturday mornings.
one thing gone unsaid is whenever you compete [race] at yellomundee you pay
a riders fee for the day to the NP&WS. this is used to maintain the park so with
out even physically helping out you are financially helping to conserve the park
you are riding in on the day.
i don't know of any NP&WS people that actually maintain trails. not saying they
do or don't, they may well but i have not heard of them maintain trails. they have
done a lot of work though to the car parking area at yellomundee which would
have cost a fair bit - its SOOO much better now that whole area.
- - - - - - - - - - -
every round of the WSMTB club i help out in which ever way i can. timing, setting
up packing away, registration, track marking etc.
generally the numbers are larger than 100 riders. i don't know how many turn up for
track maintenance as well as race but from memory the trail maintenance day have
about 6-10 people attending in which most are members of the WSMTB Committee.
the club promotes help on maintenance days by rewarding those who attend with
10 extra points each attendance towards their season points tally.
i would love to see more people turn up for trail maintenance days !
but i personally don't have issue's with riders who don't either. for me it is still volunteer
work and completely up to the individual and everyone is different with their level of
involvement in the sport/hobby what ever you want to call it.
- - - - - - - - - - -
when i attended the MTB discussion at springwood i did motion the fact NP&WS need to
start to be come more active with the community and this whole [I]conversation is once
again proof of the reason why. i just feel there should be more than just a forum post on a
smaller community forum to rally the troops together to help out. you should have more
help with organising this kind of work from ALL the respective parties.
thats my 2c worth.
ukalipt
13-10-10, 10:35 PM
oh yeah. this thread does make (http://bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3241) me laugh
oh yeah. this thread does make (http://bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3241) me laugh
Organising fail.
Actually on that list 5 of the 12 are not regular posters on here or don't consider themselves part of the BMU community.
The odd BMU member has dfinitely made a real contribution. That is, going beyond posting pictures and reviews. Have a look at all of the advocacy threads and you can see why BMU has developed a reputation as a community that doesn't give anything back.
You are short changing BMU again, I can count at least 8 of 12 regulars from that list...:p
It's a bit shallow when you judge a communities contributions just by the Advocacy threads you've started....even when BMU contributes, you are still short changing them....*sigh*.
Please define your terms for REAL contribution??......
Ah, so while i'm not condoning illegal trail building, he has at least gone out and tried to support his local mtb community. I can respect the effort, if a little misguided in the current climate of discussion with NPWS, that Nat has put in there.:)
So efforts of some (although illegal) are noticed because they agree with you, but others go unnoticed because they don't share your same view? :confused:
Talking about having 1 eye opened 1 eye closed....
Please define your terms for REAL contribution??......
Public Forum: Mountain biking in national parks. Wednesday October 13th (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3829) - One BMU member attending.
Knapsack Reserve Draft MTB Plan Public Comment (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3823) - One BMU member showing interest.
Trail Maintenance - Royal National Park - 3rd Saturday of every month
(http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=1738) - Approximately 11 regular posters. Most asking the same questions repeatedly about time, venue, dates or how it went. A fair number of apologies, which is okay, people have lives outside of mtb. But, comnpared to the activity that the Loftus ride and picture threads get, the maintenance thread is pretty stale.
Mountain biking in NSW National Parks - Have your say! (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3712) - Been through this one already. But there is really no excuse for everyone who is interested in mtb and also a member of a cycling messageboard not to comment. This is the most important mtb issue of our generation.
UCI Survey - ends 16th July (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3381) - 4 responses. This is a race thing so I believe it's not a big deal for BMU. There seem to be very few people who actively follow the WC.
Bike Skills/ Pump Track Park at Northbridge (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3474) - A few people sent off emails and turned up to help out and for the numbers involved overall sounds like a good effort from BMU. Lorday even offered to help people get cheaper tools, which was a complaint made by some people regarding the 'passion' for trail maintenance. I can see now why Jing said chuckie was lumped with me in his 'them' pile. He did make a comment in a negative fashion about only one BMUer turning up at one point and BMU giving the impression they are cycling enthusiasts. Still, it's pretty thin skinned to chuck someone in that pile because of that.:(
Oxford Falls Plan of Management review (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3737) - Nothing from BMU? Interesting to note that ideas were provided from NobMob, another forum that Jing has pointed out as not having an active role in mtb advocacy and trail maintenance.
Do you put back in what you take out of this thing with two wheels ? (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3613) - 14 responses overall to the poll. One I'm assuming is a joke vote. That brings the numbers back to those that have made the effort to comment on the NPWS discussion paper and when 5 of those are not regular BMU posters it could be assumed that 5 of those who voted in the poll are also not regular BMU posters. One is even from NZ and a little far away to get involved in NSW or Sydney based mtb issues!
Vulnerable Road Users Inquiry - submissions close 6th August, 2010 (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3364) - 55 viewable submissions. 1 from BMU? Nice work Lorday. :) I thought a lot of people on BMU also rode on the road? I guess they are happy with the cycling situation on Sydney roads.
Western Sydney Regional Park - a possibility (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3568) - This one came from NobMob as well! Any action from BMU? There was a bit of complaining that writing a letter or email was too hard. There was a simple survey posted up but no response from anyone on BMU after that went up so I can only assume it was all too hard for everyone. :(
Cycling around Canberra Survey (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3387) - BMUers organise mtb weekends to Canberra don't they? This was a simple survey monkey thing that I thought would have the majority of people fired up to do a little bit after the compaining in the WSRP thread. 5 responses! :(
Ku-ring-gai/Hornsby mtb advocacy (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3208) - NobMob again. I can see why Jing specifically mentioned that forum as one that doesn't contribute a lot. Maybe 2 responses from BMU despite initial encouraging from someone other than me to get involved?
Yellomundee Track Work (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3241) - That one didn't work out but at least someone tried. Despite the offer to help me out in the same thread Jing didn't show up. Something about having a ride planned instead!
Wet weather riding? (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=888) - Still worth a read every now and then. Some people consider that telling their friends not to ride in the rain is as good as they can do for mtb issues and it's better than nothing.
Bureaucrat's Errors Mean closure for Manly Dam (http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=2724) - This is as far back as my subscriptions go. I know there are more threads about mtb issues that have similar levels of response from BMU. Guess who started this one, that lazy NobMob forrum again! orry to harp on about them, but they were specifically menioned by Jing as not being active enough and that BMU was on a similar level of activity! A few silly responses in the thread and a small number of people being very vocal but that's about it.
Compare this low level of activity on these important issues with the activity of ride threads and photo threads. Then continue to wonder about the perception of BMU by others. :eek:
I appreciate the genuine discussion that some people have posted up. :)
I can also understand how some people are getting sick of what they think of as my 'rants' or that I'm on a bit of a high horse and I apologise that my frustrations at the lack of understanding, activity and general laziness on the abovementioned and other issues seem to be coming through my posts. We can have the same discussion on Saturday at Loftus, while working, if you are concerned I might be a bit of a keyboard warrior. It'll jut be me saying the same points though. Maybe BMUers could contact IMBA Australia and organise a training and awareness day like the one recently at Springwood. Then you guys could organise your own maintenance days and contact the right people to get permission to work on tracks. I do wonder if people didn't feel guilty about not contributing why has this discussion continued?
I will say you are passionate but i think you are also an extremist and because most of us here dont have the same passion as you it doesnt mean we dont care about the trails or riding in general. Its been said on other forums that helping out doesnt just mean digging with a shovel..... and just because people dont sing it from the roof tops doesnt mean they arent doing anything either
I got told yesterday you are a school teacher and i now understand why you have so much free time to do what you do. Hell, if i had thw ability to work from home at night during school holidays preparing the next terms work, marking exams etc i would most certainly attend a few track maintenance days but i dont.
Unfortunately my weeks are filled with a 7.30 to 5 job and some part time towie work on weekends which doesnt leave me much time for the family, let alone riding or track work. Hell, i often leave Andrea at home to clean "OUR" house by herself just so i can get in one lap of Manly Dam. Everyone here will vouch for the fact i say i will be riding only to bail on rides because something has come up and i cant make them :( People have placed bets on wether i will show to rides that i have replied i would be at..... i guess a few people have made some decent money out of me ;)
Personally i think you need to take a step back and realise that mtbing doesnt rule every bodies life, as it obviously does yours, and to some there are more important things than trail maintenance and i am afraid that if you cant come to terms with that then its just to bad......
Posting up replies like the one above is only going to be detrimental to what you are trying to achieve. If there is one sure way of getting a community off side its to bag the crap out of them. And i know, you have tried positive positive comments in the past but if people just dont have the time no number of comments will be able to entice them along
well being a Brisbane member i guess i can't really comment on much of this as i don't ride the same trails as you guys or really know many of you. But when did what forum you post on matter, the mtb community is a lot larger than forums and the internet. BMU is not a mtb club it is just a ONLINE forum/online community. When you go for a ride you don't point out hey look it's a BMU rider they don't contribute to trail care. or hey that guys on RB he contributes etc.
Yeah sure maybe if BMU was a affiliated mtb club and they had to look after trails. Well then yes i would agree that people not contributing to trail car would be an issue because that's the whole point of being in a club is looking after club trails and the community. But it's not it's just a forum. But bunching people together just because they post on the same forum is not right. And then saying a FORUM doesn't contribute is a joke.
And i don't do online surveys because think they are a boring i sit behind a computer all day i don't won't to go home and sit on it again doing i survey i would much rather be view the velovixen thread here on BMU :loling:
MTB community is not online its out on the trails with your mates or club mates having a ride and having a laugh. We discuss trails etc all the time and if we think they're is a way of improving the local trails we will talk to the trail manager or head to trail days. We don't post up surveys etc.
" The impact of trail maintenance on a comunity? "
I thought this thread was about trail maintenance, but obviously your issue with BMU goes way beyond what we are all expecting. Like you said, it's not all about trail maintenance, but also it's not all about everyone being a strong advocate like yourself. Everyone does their bits, some do it quietly, and some do it publicly like yourself. But do you sweep those off their feet for not showing they are contributing to the community on the internet?
FACT: Trail work is being done by BMU members. I've been to a few maintenance days, but have only seen you on one occasion, does that mean I've only ever turned up to one in your eyes?
you are a good advocate for MTB, but don't go about it the wrong way.
ukalipt
14-10-10, 09:41 AM
grant. trail work is volunteer work.
FOR THE RECORD:
there is only one thing you can change in the world thats yourself... not others.
Wow fucking wow grant. Assumptions much?? FYI I missed the appin track work not because I rode. I did not ride anywhere. I simply couldn't turn up and I apologized to u for that but yeah u can see the problem right there.
U guys see a few tell tale sign often in the form of one post and the assume. Like yesterday tai told me a couple of ppl thought we rode ourimbah over the long weekend. The truth is anything but that. We held discussions 2-3 times in regards to the ride before calling all rides off.
Thin skinned? Could u see someone thin skinned posting the blog I did?? Lol all the flak I'm copping ranks me as thin skinned for sure :p
Assumptions.
Negative.
Biased.
Nobmob?? I see what I see from An externals perspective. I'm not out to get Nobmob as I actually like the community. Lack of working on trails was what I saw from a quick skim of those forum. Much the same as what someone would be looking at bmu would be like. U can explain away how much bmu and Nobmob differ interns of active participation but I have absoluelty no doubt now that u could explain away that the earth is flat should u choose to actually believe that :)
Bmu will participate in trAil work. 100%
But we will participate in trail work under a positive attitude and not a hostile Nazi regime.
In the end I believe the MTb community wins which is the good thing.
yeah everyone needs to calm down a bit and chill out a bit, its getting heated and very personal which isnt needed...
people from BMU have in the past attended trail work and do actively participate in bike related activities; could we do more as a community yes. Should it be a nazi regime to force it, no.
and its snide remarks like this that will get you nowhere in a place like this either Grant....
Around 80 people I think. Is seeing the same, familiar faces a problem?
Would you believe I forgot to take before and after pictures!
i can see also why grant has become a little more personal and i guess i can understand it.
Anyways all of this has provided some good fuel for what i want to do so i will post em up in due time and people can have a discussion!
ironhide
14-10-10, 11:05 AM
Why not start with something that is already established:
http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/forumdisplay.php?f=4
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?116-Trail-Building
http://nobmob.com/node/17241
Looking at that i can see why BMU gets the stereo type that it has.
2 threads on BMU re mantenace/advocacy, 7 on Nobmob and looks like 12 on RB on the first page alone as recent as end September.
I could be mistaken tho.
- Mike
yeah but mike what about how long nobmob has being around for and RB? what about the numbers of members.
any ways i am kinda over the blog stage. I am in the stage of how to "change" things.
I guess this thread has served its purpose for me already!
Why not start with something that is already established:
http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/forumdisplay.php?f=4
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?116-Trail-Building
http://nobmob.com/node/17241
Looking at that i can see why BMU gets the stereo type that it has.
2 threads on BMU re mantenace/advocacy, 7 on Nobmob and looks like 12 on RB on the first page alone as recent as end September.
I could be mistaken tho.
- Mike
you fail to see the relativity in terms of size and age of the 3 places you are comparing....
BMU simply does not have the capacity to contribute just as much as RB and NobMob, but does that mean we are not contributing?
NO!
We are contributing but not to a degree seen in NobMob and RB...
but yeah, it raises the whole point why we are misunderstood. Just like how ironhide had a quick skim over and thought bmu did less, those "other" people often skimming our forums do the same thing.
Justin Fox
14-10-10, 11:17 AM
Aggressive much? Grant you really need to read all of your posts in this thread again.
It's pretty obvious to me that you have a chip on your shoulder against "the BMU Community".
I can't believe how disrespectful you're being towards a group of guys who just love bikes and love riding.
You've officially lost my respect, big time.
Do what you can. Don't feel pressured but do it for the love
Over at BMORC Andy (http://nobmob.com/node/15219) came up with the 5% rule
"So anyway, I was wondering to myself, what would be a fair ratio of riding to maintenance
I came up with a ratio of 5%, and I think this is more than fair
This means that for every hour you spend riding, you contribute 3 minutes"
Seems pretty doable for most people. That 3mins could be moving sticks off the trail, trimming back over growth, cleaning a bit of rubbish, writing an advocacy letter... Whatever
As a club guy into advocacy I only get frustrated with other club members who often demand more racing or maintenance but don't lift their hand when you call for assistance in getting that done. "Oh but I'm training." So would I be if I had a hand and the work was already done:)
Causal riders... Get out there and enjoy yourself. Put in where you can and remember in many cases building and maintaining can be every bit as fun and rewarding as riding.
dont worry thecat we will!
Do what you can. Don't feel pressured but do it for the love
Over at BMORC Andy (http://nobmob.com/node/15219) came up with the 5% rule
"So anyway, I was wondering to myself, what would be a fair ratio of riding to maintenance
I came up with a ratio of 5%, and I think this is more than fair
This means that for every hour you spend riding, you contribute 3 minutes"
Seems pretty doable for most people. That 3mins could be moving sticks off the trail, trimming back over growth, cleaning a bit of rubbish, writing an advocacy letter... Whatever
As a club guy into advocacy I only get frustrated with other club members who often demand more racing or maintenance but don't lift their hand when you call for assistance in getting that done. "Oh but I'm training." So would I be if I had a hand and the work was already done:)
Causal riders... Get out there and enjoy yourself. Put in where you can and remember in many cases building and maintaining can be every bit as fun and rewarding as riding.
Well said :)
ironhide
14-10-10, 11:47 AM
you fail to see the relativity in terms of size and age of the 3 places you are comparing....
BMU simply does not have the capacity to contribute just as much as RB and NobMob, but does that mean we are not contributing?
NO!
We are contributing but not to a degree seen in NobMob and RB...
Hold on Kevin, i never said that BMU never contributed - if that was the case i wouldnt of posted the link to the BMU maintenace/advocacy threads. I was simply stating that looking at what posts already exist within each "community", you quickly come to a conclusion that one community does more advocacy/maintenace work than the other.
Granted that NobMob and RB have been around longer than BMU, but 92% of the first page of the BMU events section are ride threads.
You can see how a new member or a troller would come to this stereotype.
Agreed with Jing - your blog might have had a positive effect on BMU, this thread might be the start of a good change.
Time will tell.
Good night folks.
- Mike
Why not start with something that is already established:
http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/forumdisplay.php?f=4
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?116-Trail-Building
http://nobmob.com/node/17241
Looking at that i can see why BMU gets the stereo type that it has.
2 threads on BMU re mantenace/advocacy, 7 on Nobmob and looks like 12 on RB on the first page alone as recent as end September.
I could be mistaken tho.
- Mike
Mike, I think BMU is more organised as a forum and has dedicated threads for each issue. The other forums have probably got every man and his dog throwing up threads for every which reason. The other reason may be that RB is full of members from a wider area than Sydney. I think you will find that majority of regulars on here are from Sydney.
Plus they also have a dedicated section for trail maintenance.....if they clubbed all the in a general "EVENTS" section (Like BMU) I'm sure it'll get burried as well....
ironhide
14-10-10, 12:20 PM
Mike, I think BMU is more organised as a forum and has dedicated threads for each issue. The other forums have probably got every man and his dog throwing up threads for every which reason. The other reason may be that RB is full of members from a wider area than Sydney. I think you will find that majority of regulars on here are from Sydney.
Plus they also have a dedicated section for trail maintenance.....if they clubbed all the in a general "EVENTS" section (Like BMU) I'm sure it'll get burried as well....
Valid points i agree.
But is every man and his dog posting about some maintenance day or advocacy a bad thing? The more threads about these things the more people are aware.
And i see these two comments being a bit contradicting from 2 established members of BMU. Why cant BMU have a dedicated section for trail maintenace if it is more organised? Why lump all "events" together in a well organised forum?
I'm not saying change BMU for the sake of change. Im just saying that what i see on the forums i come to the conclusion that;
RB are a bunch of hardcore all action riders who put back into the trails they ride.
NobMob are a bunch of older, more experienced riders who work more to establishe a better MTB'ing community.
And BMU are a bunch of guys that have a lot of bikes and just love to ride.
Is that a bad thing tho? According to this thread - some people seem to care about what others say about them.
You shouldn't be made to feel guilty about just riding but you should also at least do something to make MTB a better hobby/sport/recreation.
And while on the topic of doing something;
How much is enough? 3%? 5%? 15mins? 30mins? 1 hour? 4 hours?
And what counts as contribution? emailing? attending forum discussions? cleaning up trails after a ride? picking up and taking away rubbish that other riders have left behind?
Everyone seems to be harping about how others dont do enough and they do all the work - but no one seems to have a acceptable answer to: if there was a No Dig No Ride "policy/gentlemens agreement", how much is enough?
- Mike
Justin Fox
14-10-10, 12:28 PM
- BMU has 300 active members, RB has 8,102 active members. If you looked at the ratios, there are probably more people on BMU that do trail maintenance than on RB?!
- BMU's most active thread is the Velovixens thread. Full stop. Bahahaha.
You make valid points as well.
But I'm not a mod, so i don't control the layout of the forum. I also didn't see the need to have a seperate section of trail maintenance until what you've pointed out what is happening in our Events section. So i think a seperate Trail Maintenance section is a good idea! :D
You shouldn't be made to feel guilty about just riding but you should also at least do something to make MTB a better hobby/sport/recreation.
And while on the topic of doing something;
How much is enough? 3%? 5%? 15mins? 30mins? 1 hour? 4 hours?
And what counts as contribution? emailing? attending forum discussions? cleaning up trails after a ride? picking up and taking away rubbish that other riders have left behind?
- Mike
How much is enough? How do you know what goes on during our rides? How'd you know we don't fix up loose rocks, move fallen trees, and pull back over grown branches? How did all this assumption come about that we are not even doing these little things you speak of?
Did you spy on us or something?
ncativo
14-10-10, 12:36 PM
lol guys,
don't you have work to do?
dont you have a metal bike to recycle :D
There was two of us from BMU (babau) who turned up to the pump track build day... Oh wait, they were both rotorburners as well.
What I do not like about this thread is the catergorisation of cyclist. BMU, nobmob, rb etc. Why can't it just be mtbikers?
What I do like about this thread is thecat.
x-posted on rb too
Trail advocacy and building post #3
Posted on 14/10/2010 by jingers
Just by using this title alone i will get another 100+ hits. Such is the power of controversy. It occured to me recently that people have called me thin skinned. Not just 1 actually a few. I had a pretty long think about it and thought it over and considered their point of views but decided to disagree.
I posted what i posted not because of personal reasons. I didn’t read something on the forum i wasn’t happy about and then decided to blow up. I simply saw a need to voice what i was feeling in regards to the issues of trail advocacy and the way it is often presented these few days especially on BMU forum. I do not think this is thin skinned. I think this is called addressing issues. Plus i am sure most of you guys reading right now most likely hate my guts and since i am still posting that is a pretty clear indication of my skin thickness.
So onwards to the real topics at hand. Trail advocacy/building. I had a talk yesterday with a guy named Tai. We had a discussion in regards to many different topics in regards to mtb trails and it was decently decent. I say this because in the midst of all this discussion, he helped me, maybe indirectly to realise what needs to be done and how it can be potentially addressed. The issues i am talking about here is unrelated to my previous two posts in that it isn’t a reaction purely based on how i felt we were treated unfairly but rather issues that deal with where we go from here. IE how do we take what we have discussed and use it for the better of the mtb community. So i will NOT be talking about BMU vs RB vs other communities and how i feel it is unfair here. That is done. Done in the previous two posts and done in the forum threads that blew up on the Internet.
I realised that many of us “not just bmu people judging from some of the responses” do want to help but trail work ie actual trail maintenance is a little inaccessible. No matter what you say, without the right people, right connection it is slightly daunting to go about. People will say stuff like “if you are dedicated you can do it” and yes you are correct but not everyone is as dedicated as everyone else *refer to my first 2 blog posts*. So what am i going to do about it? Well i am going to dedicate myself to making trail work more accessible.
There you go i said it. I want to make trail work more accessible and friendly to potential people that have always thought about it but never turned up. For people who have less dedication than the most hardcore people. To let those people know that a little dedication is better than no dedication and that even the littlest dedication is more than appreciated as they are already 1 step ahead. I honestly believe this is the next step to a healthier trail system across Australia. So i am going to go through the “daunting” process myself so others don’t have to. I kinda wished i had someone to guide me along but i have attempted and completed things i believe that are just as hard in my life time so what is a new challenge?
I have my IMBA trail solutions book on order and i am reading IMBA pages in regards to various solutions. As a trail rider i have often thought that certain sections could be done better. More flow and i guess this is my time to express that in actual trail shaping changes with the help and advice from others of course. IMO trail work is fun. I have never doubted that. I reckon you can make it as fun if not more fun than a ride day and i reckon it is all about marketing. The current trail advocacy people obiviously don’t market too well and i reckon that is something i can greatly build upon and possibly bring more people to. You guys already mentioned we post a lot of pics and videos and i intend to stretch that to potential build days. Showing people that previously would never consider trail work that trail work is actually fun. Pics and videos do this much better than you telling your mate and your mate telling your mates that trail work is actually fun.
I intend to get the different techniques of trail building down pat over time and start a series of DIY guides for EVERYONE to view. IE how to stop the annoying rocks at appin’s roll down from moving all the time. If not possible what can be done as a temp fix in the best possible way? How about what to do in the event of a downed tree or branch? Of course i will consult a few people and ask if i am digging a big hole or not but i am hoping with IMBA’s guide and more experience my posts will be just as good as Grant’s or any one of you trail workers. I am doing this out of my own spare time because i realised not everyone has the time to do so and that isn’t wrong. I am going to do this for the love of MTB and not because i want to simply appease others or get in their good books. If members on our forum do not turn up to trail days so be it. I will not treat them as negative contributing members knowing that they have contributed in other ways to our sport *hell even a simple bike purchase is contributing if you want to be super anal*.
I am suggesting for BMU to have a trail advocacy section as well so on the public front we don’t look like locusts. I know we are not but people do and we need to address this. Bmu people do respect and care about the trails and i can tell you this because i am thankful to god/trailworkers/whoever that has maintened and built and advocated for a trail everytime i carve a section of a singletrack that gives me that buzz. The one and same buzz i am sure all of you feel.
As an aside one little tid bit of information which noone but a few knows.
On one sunny morning ride at loftus oval myself and a friend ran into a couple of rangers clearing out branches. We stopped, talked to them, introduced BMU and told them how much we appreciate their work and how we want to give back. We told them because we rode the trails so much we feel we need to do work on it. 1-2 months later loftus oval maintence days was setup and BMU members were turning up. In small numbers? yes. There working in earnest and for the best of our community? yes.
This is exciting times for me, let’s see where this goes from here like someone said on the forums.
If you are 1/2 as particular about this as what goes into your bikes Jing, then this will definitely turn out to be something special!
But i know you'll give it 100% so what you are doing is going to be fanastic, and I'll fully support it.
Hurray to easily acccessible trail maintenance info!! And group hug!!
ironhide
14-10-10, 01:25 PM
- BMU has 300 active members, RB has 8,102 active members. If you looked at the ratios, there are probably more people on BMU that do trail maintenance than on RB?!
- BMU's most active thread is the Velovixens thread. Full stop. Bahahaha.
Bingo! I think this is what it all comes down to. The thread counts do not truley depict the ration of participation within BMU.
It all comes down to numbers, the more members you have, the more threads posted the more participation within certain trailbuilds days/advocacy forums.
I think this is what Grant has not considered when he noted down the posts vs BMU participation. You cant dismiss a forum for non participation or compare between 3 when the number of members greatly differ.
Here's an analogy that might help - 15 guys stand in a line to compare c*ck sizes. 10 asians and 5 black guys. When measurements are done, it is concluded that in total the measurement for asians is greater than that of the black guys. But individually the black guys c*cks are bigger than that of the asian guys. This is the same when comparing concidering participation vs member count.
Im not being racist cos im asian and we all know black guys have big schlongs. And we asians know that its not the size that matters - its how well you handle your weapon that counts ;) (at least thats what my wife says to me).
And Velovixens is the absolutely best thread amongst the 3 forums.
You make valid points as well.
But I'm not a mod, so i don't control the layout of the forum. I also didn't see the need to have a seperate section of trail maintenance until what you've pointed out what is happening in our Events section. So i think a seperate Trail Maintenance section is a good idea! :D
How much is enough? How do you know what goes on during our rides? How'd you know we don't fix up loose rocks, move fallen trees, and pull back over grown branches? How did all this assumption come about that we are not even doing these little things you speak of?
Did you spy on us or something?
Hold on Kevin - not having a go at you. Just a general observation based on the posts that i see. That is where the assumptions come from - posts and post counts.
In defence of BMU i would have to conclude that a forum group should really not be judge on what exists within its posts or how many members participate compared another forum group but based on the amount of effort by each member puts in. In saying that maybe BMU should follow its "bigger brothers" and make visible the efforts that this forum puts back into the mountain biking community.
lol guys,
don't you have work to do?
Im in IT - we look like we are doing work even tho we are in forums all day. :D
- Mike
your cock analogy has me scratching my head but also laughing.
ironhide
14-10-10, 01:29 PM
your cock analogy has me scratching my head but also laughing.
Asians/black guys represent forum members. cocks represent effort in participation.
Just because your forum has more members does not mean there is more effort.
- Mike
not sure if my message came across but it was a postive comment at your injection of humour in this thread lol
ironhide
14-10-10, 01:32 PM
Ah ok.. lol i thought you were confused. :loling:
ncativo
14-10-10, 01:40 PM
Nice day outside!
so jing, how's the yeti?
awesome. but most trail advocates would know that already since they have prolly being spamming my blog like no tomorrow :D
It was all an advertisement campaign wasn't it? :D
Matt Mead
14-10-10, 02:24 PM
need a PC express ad on there :P
Matt Mead
14-10-10, 02:25 PM
oh and matthew mead photography for good measure :P
In saying that maybe BMU should follow its "bigger brothers" and make visible the efforts that this forum puts back into the mountain biking community.
I totally diasgree with you Mike. Why should we have to post up photos and threads to be seen as doing work. I could head out into the bush tonight and take 3000 photos of myself holding a shovel, a rake and chain saw. Change my clothes 10 times whilst doing so and have stock of photos for the next 6 months ad appear to have built 3 down hill trails and 50 klms of single trail. Have i done track work hell no.
Photos mean nothing, nor does being seen because hypathetically speaking i could simply call Grant a liar for having no photos to back up his claims and i also have Kevin as evidence that he has only attended one Loftus track work day. Is what i have said here true, i am sure its not, but what i am trying to say is that posts on a forum and photos on a forum dont mean jack shit.
Just because its not being seen doesnt mean its not happening
oh and matthew mead photography for good measure :P
Blog roll for www.kevin-yiu.com as well? :loling:
I really need to kick start my blog again now that i have more free time...hahah
ironhide
14-10-10, 02:34 PM
I totally diasgree with you Mike. Why should we have to post up photos and threads to be seen as doing work. I could head out into the bush tonight and take 3000 photos of myself holding a shovel, a rake and chain saw. Change my clothes 10 times whilst doing so and have stock of photos for the next 6 months ad appear to have built 3 down hill trails and 50 klms of single trail. Have i done track work hell no.
Photos mean nothing, nor does being seen because hypathetically speaking i could simply call Grant a liar for having no photos to back up his claims and i also have Kevin as evidence that he has only attended one Loftus track work day. Is what i have said here true, i am sure its not, but what i am trying to say is that posts on a forum and photos on a forum dont mean jack shit.
Just because its not being seen doesnt mean its not happening
Well i never said anything about taking photos and posting them up. Im just saying that maybe BMU needs to make their efforts more visible. Other wise it might lead to an unjustified stereotype. and i never said BMU members didnt do any trail work - Im just stating that compared to a forum with more trail work\advocay threads, BMU looks lacking. But this doesnt mean that the effort on BMU per member does not exceed those of the other forums.
And regarding posts on forums meaning jack shit - this is were i would have to disagree in part. If you are iposting for the sake of posting then Yes you are correct. Doesnt mean alot. But if it is about a cause or a build day that will actually happen then the posts make these events more visible to members (like myself) who do not know about current issues concerning the MTB community. How many of you actually knew there was a discussion about the NSWNP thing before Grant posted it? I certainly did not.
- Mike
yup mikes got it. The trail advocacy sub forum is just step 1 of all of that :)
Matt Mead
14-10-10, 02:36 PM
Blog roll for www.kevin-yiu.com as well? :loling:
I really need to kick start my blog again now that i have more free time...hahah
So much effort but hahha
blogs are like eating kfc. Seems a good idea at the time but after a little while not so good.
ncativo
14-10-10, 02:44 PM
Blog roll for www.kevin-yiu.com as well? :loling:
I really need to kick start my blog again now that i have more free time...hahah
Where did you download those photos from?
from "www.nofreeyetiphotosfornelson.com" is what kevin will say LOLOLOL
guys, please keep it on topic
ncativo
14-10-10, 02:47 PM
I reckon a couple of photos of my bike would boost up your webpage!
Well i never said anything about taking photos and posting them up. Im just saying that maybe BMU needs to make their efforts more visible. Other wise it might lead to an unjustified stereotype. and i never said BMU members didnt do any trail work - Im just stating that compared to a forum with more trail work\advocay threads, BMU looks lacking. But this doesnt mean that the effort on BMU per member does not exceed those of the other forums.
- Mike
Photos and posts on a forum mean nothing but mate.... and i do realise you werent speaking of photos, i made mention of that as this forum is known for its photographic flair :D
I dont see why we need to prove to people that we are doing something by rearranging a forum to make people happy....
Just start a sticky thread and let members post in there what they have done lately. Personally i think it will only make people look down at BMU even more as we dont have the member base to fill it up as quickly as other forums
ironhide
14-10-10, 04:19 PM
Photos and posts on a forum mean nothing but mate.... and i do realise you werent speaking of photos, i made mention of that as this forum is known for its photographic flair :D
I dont see why we need to prove to people that we are doing something by rearranging a forum to make people happy....
Just start a sticky thread and let members post in there what they have done lately. Personally i think it will only make people look down at BMU even more as we dont have the member base to fill it up as quickly as other forums
if it is about a cause or a build day that will actually happen then the posts make these events more visible to members (like myself) who do not know about current issues concerning the MTB community. How many of you actually knew there was a discussion about the NSWNP thing before Grant posted it? I certainly did not.
I will stand by my comments. And you are right. We dont have to prove to people that we are doing something but thats how this all started - someone said someone else was not doing something, the other person said they do, people saying BMU dont do anything others say they do.
It just helps to avoid all this.
- mike
Some interesting comments in the discussion and a new forum. That has to be positive progress doesn't it?:)
The new section is a great idea :D I like it because it promotes trail advocacy in a positive and constructive way, and makes it easier for us to get up to date on what is happening. Bikes are just one of my hobbies and I don’t have time to be on a bunch of mountain biking forums to keep up to date with trail issues, and I like BMU because it caters to dirt, track, roady, fixie etc and I like the variety. To be honest I don’t give a crap about how BMU might be perceived by others (be it forums or individuals), but then what did you expect from the weird guy from Penrith playing with beach cruisers! :loling: Again, props for the new section
mtb5150
15-10-10, 09:11 AM
Personally i think it will only make people look down at BMU even more as we dont have the member base to fill it up as quickly as other forums
Not picking out Ido, just using as an example, but this is what I dont get about this thread. I dont get the theme of BMU vs RB. I am a member of both forums (was at RB first) and the first time I have ever read or percieved a rivalry or a "perception" of BMU as anything, is when I have read it in this thread. I have never heard mention of BMU in RB.
As a Sydneysider, it reminds me of when people come up from Melbourne and say "What about this Melb vs Sydney rivalry eh?!?" to which most Sydneysiders reply "huh?.
As even grant said it isn't about rivalry at all it is about using or rather miss using other communities as examples when illustrating trail advocacy and it's participation. Nothing more nothing less.
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